Christian: Salvation (Jesus, ritual, Eden, incarnation, followers)

[sojourner]

People today are worshipping in many diffrent ways and doing things that are not even found in the scriptures.

The Church has always done that. Remember, the Bible was not yet written when Christians began to worship apart from their jewish progenitors.

If Jesus is the Head of the CHURCH and he is (Col.1:18) and the body makes up the church (individual members),the way it is supposed to work is that the head tells the body what to do. The body should ONLY DO what the head tells it to do.
(If) the head is leading all these denominations,WHY are they worshipping in so many different ways? And who DECIDED it was OK?

Because they worship and believe according to their interptetation of what Christ is telling them...just as you do. When my head says, "Ride your bicycle," my legs interpret that in one way. My hands, in another. My lungs, in yet another. Each has to work together in order to get the bicycle ridden. Maybe each individual grouping of the Church needs to work more closely together with other groups, identifiying and celebrating our unity, instead of disparaging our differences.

On top of all that they add to the word of God with their CREEDS BOOKS, which actually opposes the word of God (1Cor.4:6) (Rev.22:18,19) (Deut.4:2),THEN they ALL claim to be the ONE TRUE CHURCH following the HEAD (JESUS). Either Jesus did not give the instructions well enough or alot of people are worshipping and teaching the way they want (Rom.10:1-3). ALL these different churches cannot even agree how to get INTO the Lords Church. How does one explain all this? (John 17:21) says that we are to all be one (UNIFIED BY TRUTH) and that by this all the world will know that God sent Jesus.

All Churches agree that it is by faith in Jesus that we are identified as followers. John 17:21 says nothing about being "unified by truth." Many, manyof your scriptural references do not say what you claim they say. Truth is not the thing by which the world will know God sent Jesus. Unity is how the world will know.

My church doesn't have a "creed book." I'd be willing to bet that we worship differently than you do. I have been a member of the Episcopal Church, which uses a "Book of Common Prayer." It does not contradict the Bible. In fact, most of its contents are lifted directly from scripture. Episcopal worship is highly "Biblical" in nature. But I'd be willing to bet that they worship differently from you.

Alot of people are worshiping in ways that are meaningful for them, and in accordance with what constitutes proper worship, as they interpret that.

[sojourner]

From these verses it is clear we must do something to have our sins remitted.

So, you don't believe in the doctrine of grace, then?

What of Jesus' incarnation? What of his death on the cross? These acts of Jesus have no power, outside of what we do? In what way, then, can Jesus be said to be our Redeemer -- our Savior. In your scenario, it is we who redeem ourselves by our actions. It is we who save ourselves by our actions. These actions are the only way by which we can be saved. And if I mess up, through my own human frailty, and "do it wrong," God, who loves me infinitely, will send me to hell for ever. What kind of good news is this??? What happened to "O Love, how deep, how broad, how high!"? What's deep or broad or high about a love that says, "Oh, I'm sorry! Your answer was incorrect! But we have some lovely parting gifts for you! It's the home edition of 'Roast in eternal suffering for ever.' Buh-bye, now!"

This is the kind of stuff that cheapens God's gift of grace and causes people to run screaming from Christianity.

[Baerly]

Originally Posted by sojourner

Neither did the early Church...until they were united under the bishops that became the leaders of the Roman Church and the Eastern Church. But that has no bearing upon whether they were "not the same Church among themselves."

By and large, the churches that celebrate the Eucharist at least weekly find in that celebration the glue that makes the Church one. The Eucharist has always bound the Church together, and has been the expression of that unity. Even in differences of local practice, or cultural norm, the Church has always been one -- and will continue to be.

One might wonder. But wondering on the part of one does not make it true. Each group does follow the teachings of Jesus, as each interprets those teachings.

John 10:27 says nothing about "why are there so many different churches?" It's talking about how Jesus' followers know him, and he knows them. I certainly know Jesus, and so do you...yet you and I are from "different" groups. Since we both follow Jesus, are we not really part of the same "sheep fold?" I'm just eating grass from a different area of the pen than you."

Neither of the Philippians references talk about doctrine. 2:5 talks about having the same mind as Christ -- that mind being one of humility. 3:16 speaks of having already attained reconciliation with God, and living up to that state of being (as I've mentioned before.) That's the "rule" mentioned in 3:16. That's also the "rule" of the NT -- that we have attained reconciliation.

OK, If that is how you interpret it.

[Baerly]

Originally Posted by sojourner

Neither did the early Church...until they were united under the bishops that became the leaders of the Roman Church and the Eastern Church. But that has no bearing upon whether they were "not the same Church among themselves."

By and large, the churches that celebrate the Eucharist at least weekly find in that celebration the glue that makes the Church one. The Eucharist has always bound the Church together, and has been the expression of that unity. Even in differences of local practice, or cultural norm, the Church has always been one -- and will continue to be.

One might wonder. But wondering on the part of one does not make it true. Each group does follow the teachings of Jesus, as each interprets those teachings.

John 10:27 says nothing about "why are there so many different churches?" It's talking about how Jesus' followers know him, and he knows them. I certainly know Jesus, and so do you...yet you and I are from "different" groups. Since we both follow Jesus, are we not really part of the same "sheep fold?" I'm just eating grass from a different area of the pen than you."

Neither of the Philippians references talk about doctrine. 2:5 talks about having the same mind as Christ -- that mind being one of humility. 3:16 speaks of having already attained reconciliation with God, and living up to that state of being (as I've mentioned before.) That's the "rule" mentioned in 3:16. That's also the "rule" of the NT -- that we have attained reconciliation.

(Eph.4:4-6) is a good start on HOW we are to have unity. Verse 4 says there is one church.Society says there are many.

vs 5 says there is one faith not many,it also says there is one baptism (not one sprinkling,

(1Cor.1:8-10) says to speak the same thing.

(1Tim.1:3) says to teach No OTHER DOCTRINE.

[michel]

Originally Posted by Baerly

(Eph.4:4-6) is a good start on HOW we are to have unity. Verse 4 says there is one church.Society says there are many.

vs 5 says there is one faith not many,it also says there is one baptism (not one sprinkling,

(1Cor.1:8-10) says to speak the same thing.

(1Tim.1:3) says to teach No OTHER DOCTRINE.

I understand the point you are making; however, Religion and Politics have been bedfellows in the past (and they still are in the States, if I understand correctly).........There would have been no "Church Of England" if Henry VIII hadn't found it necessary to divorce, and separate himself from Rome.

[Baerly]

Originally Posted by sojourner

The Church has always done that. Remember, the Bible was not yet written when Christians began to worship apart from their jewish progenitors.



Because they worship and believe according to their interptetation of what Christ is telling them...just as you do. When my head says, "Ride your bicycle," my legs interpret that in one way. My hands, in another. My lungs, in yet another. Each has to work together in order to get the bicycle ridden. Maybe each individual grouping of the Church needs to work more closely together with other groups, identifiying and celebrating our unity, instead of disparaging our differences.



All Churches agree that it is by faith in Jesus that we are identified as followers. John 17:21 says nothing about being "unified by truth." Many, manyof your scriptural references do not say what you claim they say. Truth is not the thing by which the world will know God sent Jesus. Unity is how the world will know.

My church doesn't have a "creed book." I'd be willing to bet that we worship differently than you do. I have been a member of the Episcopal Church, which uses a "Book of Common Prayer." It does not contradict the Bible. In fact, most of its contents are lifted directly from scripture. Episcopal worship is highly "Biblical" in nature. But I'd be willing to bet that they worship differently from you.

Alot of people are worshiping in ways that are meaningful for them, and in accordance with what constitutes proper worship, as they interpret that.

Baerly writes: -The key is to worship according to Spirit and TRUTH (John 4:24).We need to really look hard at the word MUST in this verse. The way we worship is not optional. It does not matter if it is what we want. What matters is what the Lord has stated will please him (1Thess.4:1).I fear many people have not gave this any thought at all.

If it is not according to TRUTH it will not be accepted (Mt.7:21-27) (Mt.15:9).

We learn that lesson from Caine (1John 3:12). Caines interpretation of what to offer God did not work out to well. It reminds us of those in (Mt.7:22,23). They thought they were in good standings with God till judgemnet day,then they found out different.

We also learn from Nadab and Abihu in (Lev.10:1-3).They got burned up by God for not being obedient to the word of the Lord.This should put fear in every person who wishes to go to heaven one day.. in love Baerly

[Baerly]

Originally Posted by michel

I understand the point you are making; however, Religion and Politics have been bedfellows in the past (and they still are in the States, if I understand correctly).........There would have been no "Church Of England" if Henry VIII hadn't found it necessary to divorce, and separate himself from Rome.

I am not so sure about that. I have faith that the word of God is more powerful than any worldy institution or organization (Rom.1:16). If it come down to it we obey God rather than man (Acts 5:29).

Please,understand it is not my words or even my thoughts,but these are the very words of Jesus. Anyone can look at them and read them straight from the bible
(Acts 17:11). Politics comes in second place to all those who love God.

[Baerly]

Originally Posted by sojourner

So, you don't believe in the doctrine of grace, then?

What of Jesus' incarnation? What of his death on the cross? These acts of Jesus have no power, outside of what we do? In what way, then, can Jesus be said to be our Redeemer -- our Savior. In your scenario, it is we who redeem ourselves by our actions. It is we who save ourselves by our actions. These actions are the only way by which we can be saved. And if I mess up, through my own human frailty, and "do it wrong," God, who loves me infinitely, will send me to hell for ever. What kind of good news is this??? What happened to "O Love, how deep, how broad, how high!"? What's deep or broad or high about a love that says, "Oh, I'm sorry! Your answer was incorrect! But we have some lovely parting gifts for you! It's the home edition of 'Roast in eternal suffering for ever.' Buh-bye, now!"

This is the kind of stuff that cheapens God's gift of grace and causes people to run screaming from Christianity.

Let me bring a section of scripture to your attention and point out something. (2Peter 2:20-22) is a valuable lesson for all those who think we cannot do anything to help save ourselves . Please bear with me on this.
In verse 20 a person is saved,but then is lost because he got tangled back up in the world of sin again.(Vs)21 tells us something very interesting if we will but listen. What was it that will cause a person to lose his soul? This verse says it is the turning away from the Holy commandments. Think about it,what caused this person to lose his soul and end up in such an ugly mess? He turned from the Holy Commandments,that is what cost him his souls according to this verse. It sounds like to me as I read the bible what we do does influence where we go eternally. that is what is taught in (Mt. 7:21-27) (Acts 2:40) (Heb.5:8,9). Don't forget to look at the images the Lord gives us through the inspiration of the bible in (2Peter2:22).That is a couple of ugly images and represents a person in a lost state spiritually.He once was saved,but now is lost.

But not only that,Please look at (Titus 2:11,12).Lets look at HOW the grace of God works according to the bible.

In (vs)11 Grace appeared (notice past tense),and it came to all men.Why aren't all men going to be saved then? Let us read on and find out WHY.

(Titus 2:12) Tells us that this GRACE TEACHES us to do somethings.To many that is a new concept isn't it. What does grace teach us to do--Denying Ungodliness and Worldly Lust,we should Live Soberly,Righteously,and godly in this present world. Now these are not sugestions from God which are optional. These are the commandments of our Lord (1Cor.14:37). Not doing these things is what got the individual in (2Peter2:21) in trouble again.

Now do I believe in the grace of God? SURE I DO,but it is a biblical grace. I do not believe in grace alone and I do not believe in faith alone. The reason I don't is because the bible does not teach such a thing.One must have faith according to (Heb.11:6). We cannot be saved without the grace of God,were saved by grace (Eph.2:8,9). But that verse does not say we are saved by grace ALONE. Many are teaching that,but that is not what the bible says. I challenge anyone to find in the bible where it says we are saved by grace alone,or faith alone,using a good reliable translation. It is not there. It works kinda like the battery on your car.It takes both cables to make your car start. It is the same way with grace and works. God offers the grace to all those who will do what (Titus 2:12) says to do. In that verse were told to do some things and told NOT to do other things. That represents the New Testament Will (or LAW) of our Lord (Gal.6:2) (James 1:25) (Heb.8:10).

in love Baerly

[Baerly]

Originally Posted by michel

I understand the point you are making; however, Religion and Politics have been bedfellows in the past (and they still are in the States, if I understand correctly).........There would have been no "Church Of England" if Henry VIII hadn't found it necessary to divorce, and separate himself from Rome.

Another good point to dwell on is this,Who are we going to PLEASE? Ourselves,Our Friend,Our Boss.

(Gal.1:10) asks us the question,Who do we seek to please? Men or God,it cannot be both. Many people died with this very thought in their minds while they burned at the stake. They were committed to God till death (Rev.2:10).

Do we go to a certain place of worship just because our parents attended that same place? Are we going to please God or our Parents?.

I have a cousin who searches for a church to attend that teaches the way he wants them to teach.In doing so he is actually pleasing himself. He needs to be searching for a church who teaches what the bible says,period (John 10:27) (1Peter 4:11). in love Baerly

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by Baerly

(Eph.4:4-6) is a good start on HOW we are to have unity. Verse 4 says there is one church.Society says there are many.

vs 5 says there is one faith not many,it also says there is one baptism (not one sprinkling,

(1Cor.1:8-10) says to speak the same thing.

(1Tim.1:3) says to teach No OTHER DOCTRINE.

It says nothing about how we have unity. It does say that we have unity. You are the one saying that we don't have unity.

Since when is the Church's identity predicated upon what society says???

We all celebrate the one faith of Christ. Somehow, I don't think God is as picayune about the method as God is concerned with the state of our hearts. If Jesus could accept the little children (whom we "sprinkle"), and teach his disciples that to such belonged the kingdom, why can't you?

I Cor. 1:8-10 does not say "speak the same thing." It is an appeal to the Corinthians to agree and be united in mind and purpose. This is an appeal to a particular congregation that is heavily divided within itself. It has nothing to say about the spiritual state of the Body as a whole.

I Tim. 1:3 does not say, "Teach no other doctrine." It reminds Timothy that he was told to stay in Ephesus in order to "instruct certain people not to teach any different doctrine." In fact, if you read on, you will find that Paul is here particularly concerned that the instruction have the aim of love that comes from a pure heart, a good conscience, and sincere faith. Are you saying that other denominations do not practice this kind of instruction?! Paul goes on to say that some have deviated from this and "turned to meaningless talk, desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make assertions." Seems to me that he's coming down a little hard on those who put forth keeping the law as efficacious for salvation.