A question for non-theists

[Chevalier Violet]

My background is in philosophy of science and epistemology.

There are very few non-theists who have had a vision of God and who continue to be a non-theist. I am the only one I know. I'm starting to wonder if I'm completely alone.

So, that's why I'm asking: Have any of you ever had a "vision of God"?

What do I mean by a vision of God?

Well, if you need to ask, it's pretty unlikely you've ever had one. My visions of God were blatant. I had a clear feeling afterwards of "oh, that's what people call God." There was no question. In fact, the thing introduced itself as God.

But a few guidelines:

A "vision of God" (for the purposes of my research) is:

-waking
-sober, perceived from a normal state
-not perceived materially through normal five senses
-literal and direct (not a sign, omen, or act)
-there was perceptive content: a sight or presence felt

Anybody? Anybody at all?

My theory has always been that what divides non-theists and theists is not gullibility, wishful thinking, logic - although these are related in other ways. What really divides atheists and theists, and you'll hear both sides say this very often, is actual experience.

I am not concerned here with the question of the reality of this perception of God. The point is, a minority of believers in the west have never had a "vision of God" and I have only ever met one atheist who had experienced God. And then he became a theist about a week after talking to me.

Let me know - please respond, even if you have NEVER had a vision of God.

Thanks so much.

Chevalier Violet

PS I am still working on exercises that may help non-theists experience a vision of God. Unfortunately, most think I'm trying to convert them and many non-theists head for the hills.

[Jayhawker Soule]

I hate reruns ...

[Chevalier Violet]

I have posted an earlier version of this technique elsewhere, as well as posting the selection and validation criteria several times on this site.

You want it, you find it.

Unlike the last posting, this is a poll. So 1 against. Anyone else?

[mball1297]

Originally Posted by Chevalier Violet

My background is in philosophy of science and epistemology.

There are very few non-theists who have had a vision of God and who continue to be a non-theist. I am the only one I know. I'm starting to wonder if I'm completely alone.

So, that's why I'm asking: Have any of you ever had a "vision of God"?

What do I mean by a vision of God?

Well, if you need to ask, it's pretty unlikely you've ever had one. My visions of God were blatant. I had a clear feeling afterwards of "oh, that's what people call God." There was no question. In fact, the thing introduced itself as God.

But a few guidelines:

A "vision of God" (for the purposes of my research) is:

-waking
-sober, perceived from a normal state
-not perceived materially through normal five senses
-literal and direct (not a sign, omen, or act)
-there was perceptive content: a sight or presence felt

Anybody? Anybody at all?

My theory has always been that what divides non-theists and theists is not gullibility, wishful thinking, logic - although these are related in other ways. What really divides atheists and theists, and you'll hear both sides say this very often, is actual experience.

I am not concerned here with the question of the reality of this perception of God. The point is, a minority of believers in the west have never had a "vision of God" and I have only ever met one atheist who had experienced God. And then he became a theist about a week after talking to me.

Let me know - please respond, even if you have NEVER had a vision of God.

Thanks so much.

Chevalier Violet

PS I am still working on exercises that may help non-theists experience a vision of God. Unfortunately, most think I'm trying to convert them and many non-theists head for the hills.

How exactly is it possible for you to experience God, and then claim he doesn't exist? I could see if you chalked it up to hallucination or something, but it seems from your qualifications of what "seeing God" is, that you can't attribute it to that. This strikes me as someone asking "Have you seen a horse with your own eyes while you were completely sober and awake, but you don't think horses exist?"

There are plenty of people who have "experienced God", and remained non-theists. People describe the experience differently, but it's basically the same thing. Christians call it God, as do Muslims and Jews. Taoists call it the Tao. Buddhists call it something else. Panentheists call it God, but mean a totally different concept of the term than Christians do.

It all depends on your context. I've had experiences that might have been viewed as "seeing God" by others, but that's not the explanation that fits my context. I don't see it as a separate intelligent being from myself.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Originally Posted by Chevalier Violet

A "vision of God" (for the purposes of my research) is:

-waking
-sober, perceived from a normal state
-not perceived materially through normal five senses
-literal and direct (not a sign, omen, or act)
-there was perceptive content: a sight or presence felt

Anybody? Anybody at all?

When I was a kid, I'd sometimes get a feeling of dread in a dark basement, like someone was watching me menacingly... does that count?

[Willamena]

Is "not percevied materially through normal five senses" anything like "imagining"?

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by mball1297

How exactly is it possible for you to experience God, and then claim he doesn't exist?

Nontheism need not be atheism. It can be a "none of the above" thing.

[spiritually inclined]

It is difficult for me to say that I experienced a god, although what I felt definitely seemed to come from God. I received a telepathic message from a group of beings who helped me see myself in a different light. I was struggling with being gay at the time. They showed me that all love is beautiful.

I do not believe in an objective supernatural god, but I do not at all discount my experience.

James