A question for non-theists

[Imagist]

Originally Posted by Chevalier Violet

1.) Did you have the impression that this presence was "what people call god"? As opposed to, I don't know, a dead grandmother. It seems to me we have the "vision" part down, I just want to make sure the "of god" part is there too.

At the time, it was like a given. When I look at an apple, I don't get an impression that it is an apple, I just assume it's an apple. It was the same way with this; it didn't seem to me that it could be anything other than god.

2.) You're a non-theist now?

Yes, I am an atheist.

[Chevalier Violet]

Originally Posted by Imagist

At the time, it was like a given. When I look at an apple, I don't get an impression that it is an apple, I just assume it's an apple. It was the same way with this; it didn't seem to me that it could be anything other than god.



Yes, I am an atheist.

Just want I wanted to know. Thanks!

[Aupmanyav]

Excellent, Imagist, a vision of God, and you turn up an atheist. Thanks, Violet for asking Imagist the questions.

[Chevalier Violet]

Originally Posted by Aupmanyav

Excellent, Imagist, a vision of God, and you turn up an atheist. Thanks, Violet for asking Imagist the questions.

You're welcome, you see how interesting and rare that is? It is really a find. Most people believe what they happen to see, atheists and theists alike. Few disbelieve a vision of god, and even fewer seek one out if they haven't already had one.

[little_monkey]

Originally Posted by Chevalier Violet

My background is in philosophy of science and epistemology.

There are very few non-theists who have had a vision of God and who continue to be a non-theist. I am the only one I know. I'm starting to wonder if I'm completely alone.

So, that's why I'm asking: Have any of you ever had a "vision of God"?

What do I mean by a vision of God?

Well, if you need to ask, it's pretty unlikely you've ever had one. My visions of God were blatant. I had a clear feeling afterwards of "oh, that's what people call God." There was no question. In fact, the thing introduced itself as God.

But a few guidelines:

A "vision of God" (for the purposes of my research) is:

-waking
-sober, perceived from a normal state
-not perceived materially through normal five senses
-literal and direct (not a sign, omen, or act)
-there was perceptive content: a sight or presence felt

Anybody? Anybody at all?

My theory has always been that what divides non-theists and theists is not gullibility, wishful thinking, logic - although these are related in other ways. What really divides atheists and theists, and you'll hear both sides say this very often, is actual experience.

I am not concerned here with the question of the reality of this perception of God. The point is, a minority of believers in the west have never had a "vision of God" and I have only ever met one atheist who had experienced God. And then he became a theist about a week after talking to me.

Let me know - please respond, even if you have NEVER had a vision of God.

Thanks so much.

Chevalier Violet

PS I am still working on exercises that may help non-theists experience a vision of God. Unfortunately, most think I'm trying to convert them and many non-theists head for the hills.

I'm a little late on this thread, and I haven't read all 13 pages (my bad), but it seems that you are either confused, contradicting yourself or fabricating this stuff.

So, not to hurt your feelings, I'm an atheist, and unless one can produce tangible evidence of God ( for instance, God appearing at the UN, in front of cameras and all eyes of the world to see) there is no evidence of God, and your hallucination is, well, just that.

[Chevalier Violet]

Originally Posted by little_monkey

I'm a little late on this thread, and I haven't read all 13 pages (my bad), but it seems that you are either confused, contradicting yourself or fabricating this stuff.

I am far from all of that, but we can agree on the second paragraph.

So, not to hurt your feelings, I'm an atheist, and unless one can produce tangible evidence of God ( for instance, God appearing at the UN, in front of cameras and all eyes of the world to see) there is no evidence of God, and your hallucination is, well, just that.

As long as you predefine "evidence" as social, you're right, there is no evidence. And furthermore, as long as you make materialist and mechanistic assumptions, visions of god are just hallucinations. You are absolutely right on both counts. Moreover, you are reasonable to make such assumptions and see where they lead.

As you pointed out, many physical sciences, for mostly practical reasons, are based on these assumptions. I for one try a few different assumptions to see where those lead and what practical benefits we can find. Nobody ever said we had to make the same assumptions. FYI it is not an assumption of mine that god actually exists.

CV

[cheddarsox]

I'll jump in...I too have not read all 13 pages, hope that isn't a prerequisite. Anyway, I'm a pantheist, I don't believe in a personal god, or a "being" that is responsible for things. I consider the Universe to be my ultimate reality.

I have had several mystical experiences, the sort that others often use as "proof" of god.

I posit that the difference between atheists/non-theists and theists is sometimes in experience and sometimes in the interpretation of those experiences. I have several times suggested among groups of religious/spiritual people that I am "spirit blind", because I don't experience spirits interacting with me. Then they say...have you ever felt a presence in the room, has any item around you unexpectedly fallen, did you ever know who was calling before you picked up the phone...etc. etc. And yes, I've had those things happen, but I don't make the leap of deciding that supernatural beings are involved.

The human brain is an amazing thing, and I've taught, studied and experimented with how the brain/mind learns, interprets, orders information, perceives. Fascinating stuff. Our mind takes stimuli and seeks patterns and explanations. It is perfectly capable of taking random hodge podge and making "sense" of it...so I can "see" faces in the grain of wood, I can "see" images in inkblots, I can "hear" voices in the buzz and thrum of machinery. My mind is wired to find meaning in things and it tries very hard to do so...no matter what.

I have had mystical experiences...some while participating in some spiritual activity, others at other times. And they are meaningful to me and important to me, but I assume they are part of the natural interplay between myself and the Universe, not due to something "beyond". I have, so far, no evidence of them being anything other than my mind reacting to inner and outer stimuli to create something meaningful.

I think these experiences are real, and that we can learn things from them, but I don't consider them proof of god, or other spirit beings. I've heard voices, seem things "transform" in front of me, felt presences, got tingly/hot/cold, seen lights, spoken/prayed in tongues, traveled in a trance to the underworld and danced with Anubis, to name a few.

And these things increase my understanding of the Universe and the human condition and increase my sense of awe and wonder, but so far...no evidence of "god".

When I was a child, my mother was quite taken with the poem the "Hound of Heaven". She had memorized it, or at least large chunks of it when she was in school. I recall, hearing it, and seeing an illustrated version of it, and having mixed reactions to it's message. On the one hand, it was nice to think I was so important to God that if I turned from him, he would come after me. On the other, it was disturbing to imagine God to be such a relentless stalker.

I have always been very spiritual and religious, and put a great deal of energy into practicing the faith of my childhood, praying, dedicating myself to study and making myself available as a servant of God. You can imagine my disappointment when he seemed completely uninterested in my efforts and willingness to serve him and his people. Still, I pressed on. Until finally, it became clear that either there was no such god, or there was and he didn't care to have me on board. So, I decided to honor that which I knew and was in awe of, the Universe. I'd always felt it's "presence"...not in a "being" sense, but in a sense that I recognized that it was in charge, and orderly.

I was further disappointed that the "Hound of Heaven" didn't pursue me. It's been nearly two decades...and no sign of him.

When I was a child, I had several imaginary friends. In high school, I developed a crush on a portrait of a man that was on a book cover in the English room. I used to speak to him and fantasize about him. I have more of a relationship, and "response" from those "friends" than I've ever gotten from god. But I am fairly certain that those friends truly were imaginary and that the portrait was not channeling a real spirit...just serving as a focus for a young girls intense feelings.

So, that is my personal explanation of how I can have visions and experiences...that others interpret as "godly" in my life, and come to a different conclusion.

I also had a near death experience once when I was hemmorhaging. It was very interesting, but alas...no god.

when my second son was being born, I heard a voice say "his name is David". We did not know the sex of the baby prior to birth, and David was not on our list of names. I didn't argue...I named him David. So far, there is no evidence that there is any reason god chose to name him that. That was a pretty solid thing, yet somehow I remain unconvinced.

And, I did not ever speak in tongues when I was part of the Christian community, but have begun to do so as a pagan, non-theistic pantheist. It feels nice. It is very freeing, like suddenly I am speaking the deepest feelings of my soul, saying the most authentic things I've ever said. I could not translate it word for word, but I always have a "sense" of what it is about...be it praise, lamentations, etc.

interesting questions...if I find the time, I'll try to read over the thread.

cheddar

[fantôme profane]

Originally Posted by cheddarsox

I'll jump in...I too have not read all 13 pages, hope that isn't a prerequisite. Anyway, I'm a pantheist, I don't believe in a personal god, or a "being" that is responsible for things. I consider the Universe to be my ultimate reality.

I have had several mystical experiences, the sort that others often use as "proof" of god.

I posit that the difference between atheists/non-theists and theists is sometimes in experience and sometimes in the interpretation of those experiences. I have several times suggested among groups of religious/spiritual people that I am "spirit blind", because I don't experience spirits interacting with me. Then they say...have you ever felt a presence in the room, has any item around you unexpectedly fallen, did you ever know who was calling before you picked up the phone...etc. etc. And yes, I've had those things happen, but I don't make the leap of deciding that supernatural beings are involved.

The human brain is an amazing thing, and I've taught, studied and experimented with how the brain/mind learns, interprets, orders information, perceives. Fascinating stuff. Our mind takes stimuli and seeks patterns and explanations. It is perfectly capable of taking random hodge podge and making "sense" of it...so I can "see" faces in the grain of wood, I can "see" images in inkblots, I can "hear" voices in the buzz and thrum of machinery. My mind is wired to find meaning in things and it tries very hard to do so...no matter what.

I have had mystical experiences...some while participating in some spiritual activity, others at other times. And they are meaningful to me and important to me, but I assume they are part of the natural interplay between myself and the Universe, not due to something "beyond". I have, so far, no evidence of them being anything other than my mind reacting to inner and outer stimuli to create something meaningful.

I think these experiences are real, and that we can learn things from them, but I don't consider them proof of god, or other spirit beings. I've heard voices, seem things "transform" in front of me, felt presences, got tingly/hot/cold, seen lights, spoken/prayed in tongues, traveled in a trance to the underworld and danced with Anubis, to name a few.

And these things increase my understanding of the Universe and the human condition and increase my sense of awe and wonder, but so far...no evidence of "god".

Wow. I just have to say that I am so much in agreement with what you have written here I feel that I could have typed this myself.

[Inky]

Response to the OP: I've had experiences that seemed like meeting or talking to God on a semi-regular basis, but eventually decided that it was more reasonable to consider them a special effect my mind produces which I interpreted according to the religious worldview I held at the time. The reason I decided that was because many people all over the world have similar experiences, and they usually fit neatly into the cultural and spiritual paradigm of the person having them. So, if I'd had those same feelings but had been raised in a different culture, I would likely have interpreted them as messages from my ancestors, closing in on enlightenment, etc. You could say I had the God experience and didn't find it convincing enough to base a personal spirituality on.

Originally Posted by cheddarsox

I have had mystical experiences...some while participating in some spiritual activity, others at other times. And they are meaningful to me and important to me, but I assume they are part of the natural interplay between myself and the Universe, not due to something "beyond". I have, so far, no evidence of them being anything other than my mind reacting to inner and outer stimuli to create something meaningful.

Very well said; thank you!

Originally Posted by cheddarsox

When I was a child, I had several imaginary friends. In high school, I developed a crush on a portrait of a man that was on a book cover in the English room. I used to speak to him and fantasize about him. I have more of a relationship, and "response" from those "friends" than I've ever gotten from god. But I am fairly certain that those friends truly were imaginary and that the portrait was not channeling a real spirit...just serving as a focus for a young girls intense feelings.

One of the hardest things to come to grips with in my departure from theism was realizing that the conversations with, and personalities of, some of my stuffed animals were as or more solid and complex as what I'd been getting out of prayer.