LDS Only: Self-righteousness in our midst

[Starfish]

In reviewing this thread, my question is--is this what you meant, Katz, when you said Scott zeroed in on it?

Originally Posted by Scott C.

Here's my theory on what goes on. This is not a good thing, but it happens.

We're competitive by nature.
We have the gospel and the non-members don't. We win.
Within the church, we all have the gospel, so how does an individual win? Well, by living the gospel better. This is why we judge one another more harshly than we judge outsiders. We are already sufficiently distinguised from the outsiders on the basis of have/don't have the gospel. Within the church, in order to distinguish oursleves, it's a not a matter of have/not have the gospel, but rather it's a matter of live the gospel/live it better.

I don't think we generally judge each other harshly, but when it happens, there is proably some truth to what I said above.

It may be true for some, but I've honestly never felt that way. I've never felt the need to distinquish myself like that.

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Whoa! I've been out of town for four days and look what I've missed: Personal attacks like I haven't seen in a long time. I'm seriously surprised that this thread hasn't been shut down yet. Apparently pretty much everybody missed my point in starting the thread in the first place -- except for Scott C. who pretty much zeroed in on it right off the bat. It was never my intention (1) to make this thread an extension of the other two threads on the gay rights issues in California or (2) to divide us into two groups of Latter-day Saints who are determined to show the rest of the RF community how truly nasty we can be. I was merely trying to explore a trend I was starting to see and to try to figure out why we feel the need to tear one another down. Talk about back-firing!

I'm a little surprised that you are surprised. After all, the gay marriage threads are where the contention has been fueled lately. When you said there is self-righteousness among us, it was inevitably going to go that direction.

I've never felt the desire to tear anyone down. My weakness is my drive to defend myself against false accusations. That's where my pride kicks in and I have to make myself walk away when I don't want to. I'm still learning to turn the other cheek.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Starfish

In reviewing this thread, my question is--is this what you meant, Katz, when you said Scott zeroed in on it?

Yes. I think he hit the nail on the head. Some people really do need to feel superior to their fellow Latter-day Saints and they do so in a number of different ways. These tendencies are not just common among LDS members on RF, but among members in everyday life. Among them...

1. Some people (they know who they are) constantly mention their ancestors by name, as if that makes them more knowledgeable than someone who doesn't happen to be descended from Hyrum Smith. Some (here in Salt Lake especially) who live in neighborhoods where a few General Authorities live, mention them all the time in the course of completely unrelated conversations. My daughter's former piano teacher was talking to me once about how her son was so much shorter than the rest of the deacons. She described him standing up with the other deacons to go take a sacrament tray and just happened to throw in, "and there was Neal Maxwll sitting a couple of rows behind the deacons." So what! My aunt was the same way. She used to refer to her ward as "the Celestial Ward" because there were a couple of General Authorities in it.

2. Some people will mention the fact that they served as Bishop or Relief Society President, as if a high-profile calling somehow indicates that this calling automatically makes them a gospel scholar. If a woman doesn't see her own calling as cool enough to mention, she'll fall back on her husband's calling. Or a mother will constantly mention to people that she has two sons who are bishops, all six of her kids graduated from BYU and all have been married in the temple. If that's not, "I'm better than you and I've done a better job of raising kids than you have," I don't know what it is.

3. Some people will stand up in testimony meeting and make a statement that clearly implies that they have been blessed to the degree they have because they are so righteous. A woman who served as my RS President once did that. She was talking about her wonderful husband and children (still preteens or very young teens at that time) and said, "I've been blessed to have such a wonderful family. My boys are so good. I know that Heavenly Father looked down on me and said, "I'm going to give her good children. She deserves good children." (Her perfect marriage ended in divorce a few years later and a couple of her perfect sons ended up doing drugs, but that's neither here nor there.)

4. Some people imply that you have to agree with them on every point of even the most obscure, insignificant doctrines or policies or you're not as "righteous and obedient" as they are. This, of course, is why I started this thread.

It may be true for some, but I've honestly never felt that way. I've never felt the need to distinquish myself like that.

Well, that's good. Nobody's asking you to wear a shoe that doesn't fit.

I've never felt the desire to tear anyone down. My weakness is my drive to defend myself against false accusations. That's where my pride kicks in and I have to make myself walk away when I don't want to. I'm still learning to turn the other cheek.

False accusations are another matter entirely. They're hard to deal with and they drive me up a wall, too.

[madhatter85]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Yes. I think he hit the nail on the head. Some people really do need to feel superior to their fellow Latter-day Saints and they do so in a number of different ways. These tendencies are not just common among LDS members on RF, but among members in everyday life. Among them...

I see it alot too Katz, i agree with you there. In my current ward though there is very little of it. I have never seen a ward so closely knit and willing to help eachother than this ward i am in. I was in a small town of 30,000 people and there were two wards, it was ou tin the country and you would not believe the crap that went on there. people thought they were such bigshots because thier father was the town dentist or something. our bishop on the other hand never pulled this stuff and he was the Bishop, town Medical Doctor, OB-GYN, and a minor chiropractor.

1. Some people (they know who they are) constantly mention their ancestors by name, as if that makes them more knowledgeable than someone who doesn't happen to be descended from Hyrum Smith. Some (here in Salt Lake especially) who live in neighborhoods where a few General Authorities live, mention them all the time in the course of completely unrelated conversations. My daughter's former piano teacher was talking to me once about how her son was so much shorter than the rest of the deacons. She described him standing up with the other deacons to go take a sacrament tray and just happened to throw in, "and there was Neal Maxwll sitting a couple of rows behind the deacons." So what! My aunt was the same way. She used to refer to her ward as "the Celestial Ward" because there were a couple of General Authorities in it.

As if you don't Katz, i have heard 3 times myself when you mention that Thomas S. Monson performed your wedding ceremony. and twice you mentioned it after i said i shook his hand when i was younger in the San Diego Temple dedication ceremony. sounds a bit to me like "can you top this"
There is nothing wrong with mentioning that you go to church with general authorities. It's probably a testimony builder seeing how these men serve in thier own wards.

2. Some people will mention the fact that they served as Bishop or Relief Society President, as if a high-profile calling somehow indicates that this calling automatically makes them a gospel scholar. If a woman doesn't see her own calling as cool enough to mention, she'll fall back on her husband's calling. Or a mother will constantly mention to people that she has two sons who are bishops, all six of her kids graduated from BYU and all have been married in the temple. If that's not, "I'm better than you and I've done a better job of raising kids than you have," I don't know what it is.

Can't people be proud of it? If they are saying that they were in an "I'm better than you" fashion i think it's silly, but there is nothing wrong with being proud, It's a great accomplishment. now they can help others achieve the same goal. i'm sure others helped them out.

Just because someone achieves something and is proud doesn't mean they can't talk about it.

3. Some people will stand up in testimony meeting and make a statement that clearly implies that they have been blessed to the degree they have because they are so righteous. A woman who served as my RS President once did that. She was talking about her wonderful husband and children (still preteens or very young teens at that time) and said, "I've been blessed to have such a wonderful family. My boys are so good. I know that Heavenly Father looked down on me and said, "I'm going to give her good children. She deserves good children." (Her perfect marriage ended in divorce a few years later and a couple of her perfect sons ended up doing drugs, but that's neither here nor there.)

So? people make mistakes. why are you so bitter about it?

4. Some people imply that you have to agree with them on every point of even the most obscure, insignificant doctrines or policies or you're not as "righteous and obedient" as they are. This, of course, is why I started this thread.

And honestly, If i have made you feel bad about that i'm sorry it was not my intent. It's just that when people talk bad about the General Authorities i get defensive. these men deserve respect and our support. becuase they aren't leading this church how they see fit, they are leading it the way the Lord wants it done.

I have stated many times in this thread and others that i am far from perfect, i struggle with things, but supporting our prophet and following his council is NOT something i struggle with. so i CAN speak about it.

[Starfish]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Yes. I think he hit the nail on the head. Some people really do need to feel superior to their fellow Latter-day Saints and they do so in a number of different ways. These tendencies are not just common among LDS members on RF, but among members in everyday life. Among them...

1. Some people (they know who they are) constantly mention their ancestors by name, as if that makes them more knowledgeable than someone who doesn't happen to be descended from Hyrum Smith. Some (here in Salt Lake especially) who live in neighborhoods where a few General Authorities live, mention them all the time in the course of completely unrelated conversations. My daughter's former piano teacher was talking to me once about how her son was so much shorter than the rest of the deacons. She described him standing up with the other deacons to go take a sacrament tray and just happened to throw in, "and there was Neal Maxwll sitting a couple of rows behind the deacons." So what! My aunt was the same way. She used to refer to her ward as "the Celestial Ward" because there were a couple of General Authorities in it.

2. Some people will mention the fact that they served as Bishop or Relief Society President, as if a high-profile calling somehow indicates that this calling automatically makes them a gospel scholar. If a woman doesn't see her own calling as cool enough to mention, she'll fall back on her husband's calling. Or a mother will constantly mention to people that she has two sons who are bishops, all six of her kids graduated from BYU and all have been married in the temple. If that's not, "I'm better than you and I've done a better job of raising kids than you have," I don't know what it is.

3. Some people will stand up in testimony meeting and make a statement that clearly implies that they have been blessed to the degree they have because they are so righteous. A woman who served as my RS President once did that. She was talking about her wonderful husband and children (still preteens or very young teens at that time) and said, "I've been blessed to have such a wonderful family. My boys are so good. I know that Heavenly Father looked down on me and said, "I'm going to give her good children. She deserves good children." (Her perfect marriage ended in divorce a few years later and a couple of her perfect sons ended up doing drugs, but that's neither here nor there.)

4. Some people imply that you have to agree with them on every point of even the most obscure, insignificant doctrines or policies or you're not as "righteous and obedient" as they are. This, of course, is why I started this thread.

Well, that's good. Nobody's asking you to wear a shoe that doesn't fit.

False accusations are another matter entirely. They're hard to deal with and they drive me up a wall, too.

I've seen a few of these things, but I wonder if this is a bigger problem in LDS-dense areas. It's just not something that seems to come up much, as far as I see. Especially in my calling . . . Kidding!! Sorry. If I hear that someone well known is in someone's ward, I'm all ears. We just don't hear that much out here.
I've mentioned my husband's and my callings several times in my posts, but it was never to put on airs. Do you think that some are over-sensitive? Actually I do know a woman who does put on airs and name-drop, but I don't like her personally, so almost anything she says tends to bug me. (I'm not proud of it, just being honest.)

I'm starting to get a little paranoid here in RF, because of the fear that even my fellow LDS might take offense.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Starfish

I'm starting to get a little paranoid here in RF, because of the fear that even my fellow LDS might take offense.

Well don't. All of us, from time to time, say things that irritate one another. We push buttons we didn't even realize existed. On a day when a person is feeling kind of low anyway, a remark that he or she might not have even noticed most of the time seems like a real dig. I most of us, myself included, are guilty of most of the things I mentioned. It's when they are done to intentionally that it really bugs me. I'm not stupid, and I know when I've been intentionally insulted. If there is any quality in a person I positively detest, it's self-righteousness. But please don't worry that I see you as guilty of that, because I don't.

[madhatter85]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Well don't. All of us, from time to time, say things that irritate one another. We push buttons we didn't even realize existed. On a day when a person is feeling kind of low anyway, a remark that he or she might not have even noticed most of the time seems like a real dig. I most of us, myself included, are guilty of most of the things I mentioned. It's when they are done to intentionally that it really bugs me. I'm not stupid, and I know when I've been intentionally insulted. If there is any quality in a person I positively detest, it's self-righteousness. But please don't worry that I see you as guilty of that, because I don't.

See, but you don't seem to realize that peopel may make those comments unknowingly. you only assume to know thier minds and intentions. Not everyone does things to **** people off. most of the time people just say things how they know to say them, and people take it the wrong way. It happens, We are to forgive everyone.

It doesn't sound like alot of forgiveness is in this forums. we should bring more into it.

[VirginiaWolf]

Hope you don't mind a newbie offering up his tuppence but this thread has not been the most pleasant thing to read.

What is more important? To dispute with one's fellow saints in order to fight against perceived inequality or to be a peacemaker?

What is more important? To contend with a fellow saint due to a perception that he/she is not following the prophet's counsel or to be a peacemaker?

I have always found it interesting that one of the first things Christ did when he visited the Nephites was to do away with disputations and the spirit of contention. At that time is was about the manner of baptism and the name of church. I'm sure there were some pretty entrenched viewpoints in that argument as well. Now it is over same-sex marriage and/or the perceived involvement of the church in the political process. Tomorrow it will be something else.

Whatever it's about, nothing will bring the church down more quickly than contention and judgmentalism. Whatever happened to peace on earth and good-will toward men?

I understand why this issue can be so emotive, I really do. But emotive issues tend to be blinding issues.

I don't feel that any Latter-day Saint has the right to tell another that they should leave their religious views at home when voting on political matters. If you believe something is right or wrong then you should be allowed to vote accordingly without fear of reprisal. The beauty of a democracy is that anyone can vote any way they wish for any reason they like. You may disagree with them but don't tell them that they can't.

Similarly, no Latter-day Saint has the right to tell another that they are wrong because that person specifically does not want to impose their religious views on others who do not share them. You may disagree with them and/or their reasons for voting that way but don't tell them that they can't or that somehow they are a bad Mormon for doing so.

I would even go so far as to say that no Latter-day Saint (unless you are a bishop etc and called to do so) should ever judge another saint as being either a) disobedient to the commandments/church leaders or b) as being too narrow-minded or "conservative". It serves no purpose other than to cause contention, upset and anger. Let the Lord be the judge and let our accountability be to Him and not to each other.

Love one another does not equal correct one another.

We can preach righteousness without pointing out another's faults.

We can warn our neighbour and encourage each other to continual repentance (which we ALL depend upon) without making any reference to another's flaws or mistakes.

P.S. Hope this doesn't come across as self-righteous and again I hope I haven't overstepped my boundaries as a newbie.