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  #41  
Old 06-07-2008, 01:21 PM
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First, the sinner must repent, which includes a commitment not to repeat the offense and making restitution where possible.
Thats the key..

But I dont think anywhere in the Bible it says we only have to forgive if repentence is there..

In fact we offer the other cheek...do we not?

Im not...If someone wants to slap my face I run in the other direction..or I fight back..

Love

Dallas
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  #42  
Old 06-07-2008, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by DallasApple View Post
In fact we offer the other cheek...do we not?
Exactly, we offer the other cheeck. Good point. We don't "forgive them but cover our face up so they can't hit us again".
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  #43  
Old 06-07-2008, 01:56 PM
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DallasApple denies persistent rumors of frubal enhancement surgery
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Originally Posted by Aqualung View Post
Exactly, we offer the other cheeck. Good point. We don't "forgive them but cover our face up so they can't hit us again".
Which is exactly what I plan on doing..Im not a doormat..and Im not brain dead..

You let the crap get beat out of you and your loved ones..Invite the thief into your house again after he/she stoled from you over and over..Im talkign about using the sense that God gave me..

You may be sainted..I wont..

Love

Dallas
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  #44  
Old 06-07-2008, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by DallasApple View Post
Which is exactly what I plan on doing..Im not a doormat..and Im not brain dead..

You let the crap get beat out of you and your loved ones..Invite the thief into your house again after he/she stoled from you over and over..Im talkign about using the sense that God gave me..

You may be sainted..I wont..

Love

Dallas
Interesting position.
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  #45  
Old 06-07-2008, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by tomspug View Post
"Trust" is reliant on memory. If you, say, cheat on your wife. She won't ever forget, even if she forgives you. She can't MAKE that trust come back by trying to forget. It doesn't work that way. All she can do is love, which is to treat her husband AS IF he didn't cheat on her. But he can never get her trust back. It just doesn't work that way.

That's the tragedy of sin.
Everyone is different. Some people can completely regain the trust of their loved ones. It certainly isn't easy to regain trust but it can be done. If someone steals something from you, returns it later, apologizes and promises never to steal again you forgive the person. You probably won't trust that person alone with your belongings for quite a while but sooner or later you may learn to trust that person again.
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  #46  
Old 06-07-2008, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Aqualung View Post
And yet, God doesn't make that distinction. he doesn't say, "I will resent you for them no more." He specifically says, "I will remember them no more".
ya - but God does not need to learn anything. We do...
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  #47  
Old 06-07-2008, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by idea View Post
ya - but God does not need to learn anything. We do...
We nee dto learn to become like God. That's the entire point of being here. Part of being like God, it seems, is forgetting another's sins.
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  #48  
Old 06-07-2008, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Dunemeister View Post
I didn't characterize it as some sort of defect in God. Rather, God is omniscient. He knows everything. He can't really forget. Talk of God forgetting we must take as hyperbole. As I said before, God remembers the sin but he doesn't hold it against us.
I disagree. Since forgetting a sin is not the same thing as not holding it against us, I'm going to go with the simple, straightforward meaning of the text and assume that God is capable of forgetting whatever He wants to forget. This has nothing whatsoever to do with His omniscience. If He were incapable for forgetting something He had promised us He'd forget, He wouldn't be omniscient in the first place. The ability to completely erase the sin from His mind is a far greater thing, in my opinion, than merely forgiving it.
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  #49  
Old 06-07-2008, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by DallasApple View Post
But I dont think anywhere in the Bible it says we only have to forgive if repentence is there..
Well, it's possible to interpret God's forgiveness of humanity two ways. Some say that God has forgiven everybody already but only some actually repent and accept the forgiveness. As a result, God's forgiveness is 'effective' only for those who repent.

Others say that, through the death and resurrection of Jesus, God has made forgiveness and reconciliation with God possible. That is, God has provided a means for forgiveness and reconciliation. God ACTUALLY forgives only those who ACTUALLY repent. But the INVITATION is open to all.

The first story says that the forgiveness is there without repentance, and the second says that repentance is necessary for there to be actual forgiveness. In both cases, repentance AND forgiveness are both required for reconciliation, which is the actual goal. I'm not sure which of these stories is closer to the truth. And I'm not sure it matters.

For purposes of this thread, the issue appears to be only whether forgiveness involves forgetting. I've said that the "forgetting" is a matter of not bringing up past sins against a person -- keeping no record of wrongs, as St. Paul puts it.
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  #50  
Old 06-07-2008, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I disagree. Since forgetting a sin is not the same thing as not holding it against us, I'm going to go with the simple, straightforward meaning of the text and assume that God is capable of forgetting whatever He wants to forget. This has nothing whatsoever to do with His omniscience. If He were incapable for forgetting something He had promised us He'd forget, He wouldn't be omniscient in the first place. The ability to completely erase the sin from His mind is a far greater thing, in my opinion, than merely forgiving it.
Another poster (whose name I've forgotten) has rightly said that, when we use the word "forget", we frequently don't mean "erase it from memory." For example, you might say to me, "Dunemeister, I'm so sorry for stepping on your toe yesterday." And I might respond, "You know what, it doesn't matter. I've already forgotten it." And of course, I haven't really forgotten it. I know you stepped on my toe. I just don't let the incident color my relations with you. I don't hold it against you. I don't look at you and think "There goes Katzpur, that evil toe-stepper-onner." Rather, the event is forgotten in the sense that when I see you, I can remember that you stepped on my toe without rancor and animosity. This is the sort of forgetting God is capable of.

In short, "forget" means (or can mean) "not hold sth against sb", whereas "remember" means (or can mean) "hold sth against sb".

God is not capable of ACTUALLY forgetting in the sense of "erase from memory" or in the sense that he no longer knows that you sinned in that particular way. God's omniscience prevents that sort of forgetting. It's logically impossible for God to do so, just as it's logically impossible for God, although he's omnipotent, can't create a rock that's too heavy for him to lift. God can't do what's logically contradictory. This inability isn't a "failing" of God in any sense (not that you're saying it is, I'm just making the point). In short, God can't do the logically absurd, even though he's omnipotent.
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