Once saved? (Jesus, salvation, grace, doctrine, churches)

[Fish-Hunter]

Originally Posted by angellous_evangellous

No, I don't think that Calvinism is an interpretation of Scripture.

Okay, but if your reject Reformed theology and modern day evangelical theology, what do you believe as a Christians. Labels are just shortcuts to understand what someone believes. The word Christian can mean a wide variety of mutual exclusive beliefs. For example, Reformed Christian, Roman Catholic Christian, LDS Christian have many different beliefs under the word Christian.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Originally Posted by angellous_evangellous

Wow, I'm glad to see the evangelical view under-represented.

Do you mean unconditional election and complete depravity?

I think there's a certain amount of logical consistency there: if (as most Christian denominations teach, AFAIK) people are saved based on Christ's merits and not their own, then it makes sense that being less "meritorious" in life shouldn't really matter.

If you never deserved Heaven to begin with but are headed there anyway, then why would how deserving you are factor into things later on?

Of course, arguing about the conditions of salvation doesn't really mesh too well with Romans 10:6-7.

[Fish-Hunter]

Originally Posted by 9-10ths_Penguin

Do you mean unconditional election and complete depravity?

I think there's a certain amount of logical consistency there: if (as most Christian denominations teach, AFAIK) people are saved based on Christ's merits and not their own, then it makes sense that being less "meritorious" in life shouldn't really matter.

If you never deserved Heaven to begin with but are headed there anyway, then why would how deserving you are factor into things later on?

Of course, arguing about the conditions of salvation doesn't really mesh too well with Romans 10:6-7.

I think this Lapsed Atheist is very smart. What do you think about Romans 9, Ephesians 1, and Romans 8? I think the main distinctions of Calvinism or Reformed Theology is the sovereignty and glory of God!

[angellous_evangellous]

Originally Posted by 9-10ths_Penguin

Do you mean unconditional election and complete depravity?

I think there's a certain amount of logical consistency there: if (as most Christian denominations teach, AFAIK) people are saved based on Christ's merits and not their own, then it makes sense that being less "meritorious" in life shouldn't really matter.

If you never deserved Heaven to begin with but are headed there anyway, then why would how deserving you are factor into things later on?

Of course, arguing about the conditions of salvation doesn't really mesh too well with Romans 10:6-7.

Yep. Both of these views are not consistent with Christian Scripture, which affirms the goodness of humanity, the ability of humans to do good works, and the relational nature of salvation.

[Scott1]

Originally Posted by angellous_evangellous

Yep. Both of these views are not consistent with Christian Scripture, which affirms the goodness of humanity, the ability of humans to do good works, and the relational nature of salvation.

Amen...

[angellous_evangellous]

Originally Posted by Fish-Hunter

I think this Lapsed Atheist is very smart. What do you think about Romans 9, Ephesians 1, and Romans 8? I think the main distinctions of Calvinism or Reformed Theology is the sovereignty and glory of God!

Quite so. Calvin's followers construct their idol from a very extreme and binary philosophy (eg., if God does not plan everything, then God is not God, etc) and then worship it as perfect.

[Fish-Hunter]

Originally Posted by angellous_evangellous

Yep. Both of these views are not consistent with Christian Scripture, which affirms the goodness of humanity, the ability of humans to do good works, and the relational nature of salvation.

But what's your solution and based on what source of revelation? I think we agree that if we use Scripture, we need to use all of it without glossing over Scripture that does not mix with our theology. Are you basing good works to be reconciled to God, or the good works as a prodcut of the new creation? What area do you think that God is not sovereign? If God is not completely sovereign, can we trust Him and His promises? In times of adversity and suffering, do you see God to be sovereign?

[angellous_evangellous]

Originally Posted by Scott1

Amen...

Ooops, I thought you were amen-ing the Hunter for a second there.

My goodness what a scare.