LDS: I still don't get it (Jesus Christ, priest, Latter-Day Saints, moral)

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by tomspug

Then what's the point??? I don't get it. I understand your argument, but it still doesn't make sense. You say that something significant about the gospel was lost shortly after the time of the apostles, and yet you contest that there is no difference between Christians during the "Apostasy" and LDS today! One of those beliefs is either a) not true or b) compatible in a way that I do not grasp.

One does not need to have a full knowledge of the gospel in order to be a true Christian. A Christian is and always has been someone who looks to Jesus Christ as His Savior, who acknowledges Him as the Son of the Living God, and who sees in Him the ideal for which we should all strive. When we speak of a universal apostasy, we are in no way implying that Christianity ceased to exist. Christianity has existed since Jesus Christ established His Church. It is more a matter of the loss of priesthood authority than anything else. You must understand that we believe that the Apostles Jesus Christ called to lead His Church were ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood, giving them the authority to act in God's name, to perform the ordinances of the Church and to continue to receive revelation from the Head of the Church, Jesus Christ -- even after His death. We don't believe in the "priesthood of all believers" as most Protestants do. There is a pattern and a structure in Jesus Christ's Church which He intended continue to exist until His Second Coming. When the Apostles were martyred, the foundation upon which He had built His Church crumbled. No one remained who held the authority He had given them. Consequently, there was no one left to receive revelation, to interpret the writings the apostles had left or to perform the ordinances of the Church. Over time, without continued guidance from Christ himself, Christians were left to their own understanding. Philosophies of men began to seep in to Christian theology and some of the writings of the apostles were lost, misinterpreted and transcribed incorrectly. This does not mean that there were no Christians on Earth. It means that some of the doctrines taught by Jesus Christ and His Apostles had been lost.

There fails to be, it seems, an actual value to the revelations of the LDS church. Or at least that's what it seems to imply when you say that the church was corrupted and yet the faith of believers was not impacted. If there is no difference between the faith's of Christians raised on beliefs that carried on through the "apostasy" and the faith's of LDS, if they are equally capable of loving God and others and sharing his gospel, then what on earth is the point of these revelations?

We believe in the same savings ordinances (aka "sacraments") as existed in primitive Christianity. These include baptism, confirmation, marriage, the ordination of men to the priesthood, the Lord's Supper (aka "the Eucharist" or "Communion"), etc. These ordinances have eternal significance and can only be performed by one holding the proper authority. You may or may not be aware that when an LDS man and woman are married in one of our church's temples, it is by an authority that will unite them as husband and wife, not only for this life but for eternity. By this same authority, the children born to them will be theirs forever. Ultimately this affects all of humanity, or the family of God. Without the restoration of the knowledge of these ordinances and the power to perform them, we would not have the assurance of being part of an eternal family. The Plan of Salvation, as restored in these latter days paints a much, much more complete picture of our beginnings in Heaven, the purpose for our being here, and an understanding of what lies after death than is known by mainstream Christianity. You may feel that none of this matters. If you're right about that, then there really was no need for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to be established. Personally, I believe that these things do matter, that they were missing for hundreds of years, and have now been restored.

I mean, say you left the LDS church and joined the Roman Catholic church. Would you be able to serve God any less or love people any less? Would Christ's sacrifice mean less to you? What do you believe would be lost in this transition if you abandoned Mormon doctrine?

Of course I could serve and love God and my fellow men in the Catholic Church. I would not have the knowledge I have of why I am here in the first place and what I need to do to attain the greatest of God's blessings, exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom. I would not be able to look forward to being married to my husband for eternity, having my children as part of my family for eternity, and on and on back in time for generations. I would not have had the privilege of helping to unite God's entire family again. I could not look forward to being able to progress literally forever. I would have to imagine a God that was comprised of three persons in a single substance, and I would never realize that someday, I could not only throw my arms around my Savior and thank Him for His sacrifice, but that I could also literally look into my Heavenly Father's eyes and thank Him personally for the privilege of having come to Earth and for His allowing me, even encouraging me to become like Him. There are so many things that I'd have to be satisfied to think of as mysteries. There would be so many unanswered questions? I wouldn't know what the fate of those who had died without knowing of Jesus Christ would be, and that would bother me a lot. I could go on and on, and I probably have already bored you to tears. Anyway, I hope I've been able to at least partially answer your questions.

[Scott C.]

Originally Posted by tomspug

These two beliefs seem completely contradictory to me. Exactly what is the value of the restored church if there is supposedly no need for it in this life?

Even though the gospel is preached in the spirit world, those who reject the gospel in this life may forfeit eternal blessings forever. The spirit world chance is for those who did not have the chance in this life. So, accepting the restored gospel is very important in the here and now. I don't know the details of who gets a chance in the next life and what blessings may have been forfeited in this life, so hearing and accepting now is important in our faith. Besides, we believe its a blessing to accept the restored gospel now. It brings many blessings into one's life now. We should be happy to have it now and not have to wait until the hereafter.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by tomspug

Yes, the animosity is one-sided. But that is because it is Mormonism that attempts to set itself apart from other forms of Christianity.

We attempt only to be honest about what we believe. Half the time we're accused of trying to set ourselves apart from mainstream Christianity. The other half of the time, we're accused of trying to trick people into thinking we're "just another Christian denomination." To me, it seems as if we're kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Why would you have animosity for other religions you view as incomplete or inferior?

Maybe you can tell me that. If you don't think we're considered "inferior" by most Christians, think again. You see 50 anti-Mormon threads for every one anti-Protestant thread. We're told we worship a fake Christ, that we're going to burn in Hell, that our founder was a sexual pervert. The list goes on and on. Who thinks who is inferior? We fully believe that you'll go to Heaven. How many fundamentalists believe we will?

[Katzpur]

Tom, you know you're posting on the DIR forum. We're happy to answer your questions, but some of your posts (#18, for example) are borderline debating. I really don't want to see this thread closed, but I can see it coming if you continue to offer a contradictory point of view -- even if you do so respectfully, which you have done (and for which I thank you).

[Sola'lor]

Originally Posted by tomspug

Then what's the point??? I don't get it. I understand your argument, but it still doesn't make sense. You say that something significant about the gospel was lost shortly after the time of the apostles, and yet you contest that there is no difference between Christians during the "Apostasy" and LDS today! One of those beliefs is either a) not true or b) compatible in a way that I do not grasp.

The main difference is the priesthood. The Priesthood was lost from the Earth with the death of the Apostles. Therefore any baptisms or other odinences performed in the church have no holding power and are not recognized eternally. The method of these ordinances is also important. If a church moves away from the proper performance of these ordinances especially without he priesthood then they are not bound eternally.

That's the significant thing that was lost was the priesthood. Even if the church remained exact to the proper performance of those ordinances, without the priesthood those ordinances are wortth nothing eternally.

There fails to be, it seems, an actual value to the revelations of the LDS church. Or at least that's what it seems to imply when you say that the church was corrupted and yet the faith of believers was not impacted. If there is no difference between the faith's of Christians raised on beliefs that carried on through the "apostasy" and the faith's of LDS, if they are equally capable of loving God and others and sharing his gospel, then what on earth is the point of these revelations?

That's because faith is something different. I mean no offense in the explaination that follows, I'm simply explaining it from the perspective of the apostacy. A Christian belonging to a church that does not have the proper authority(priesthood) and an LDS Christian can both have faith in Jesus Christ. Both of their faith is for their benefit. But if a person is baptized in a church without the proper authority then their baptism only applies to this mortal life but is not recognized in Heaven. While and LDs baptized by someone with the Priesthood their baptism is applicable in Heaven. As well as other ordinances such as the sacrament, Conferring the gift of the Holy Ghost, etc.

That's what the difference is. That's also how a mchurch that is good, follows Christ, preaches the gospel, can still be apostate.

I mean, say you left the LDS church and joined the Roman Catholic church. Would you be able to serve God any less or love people any less? Would Christ's sacrifice mean less to you?

No they wouldn't. That's not what the apostasy is about.

What do you believe would be lost in this transition if you abandoned Mormon doctrine?

Access to God's authority to have sealed in Heaven what is sealed on the Earth.

[Mahonri_Moriancumer]

I think the great thing about Latter-day Saint teachings is that any individual can find out if they are true or not. I am a convert to the religion and was impressed with the openness of the members to answer questions and answer them with assurity. When was of another faith, I often recall being told "that's just the way it is." Granted, there are some things that we don't know, but the big things, the essential things, are not kept from those who really take some time to investigate what these crazy Mormons keep preaching.

One verse that caught my eye in the Book of Mormon when I was an investigator (person checking the church out) was Moroni 10:3-5. One word in particular stood out, "not."

It reads,

And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

For me, Moroni (the author here) was daring me. As if he is saying, go ahead, if you don't believe me...ask God. In fact, ask him if it is not true.

My point in taking this tangent from discussion is that with Mormonism it is either true or false. If it is false, then we are done here. If it is true, then everything that comes with that is true: there was an apostacy, Christ did come to American and did visit even others (as mentioned in the Book of Mormon), etc.


The question that you really should be asking is whether the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's organization, kindom, religion, what have you...here on earth, and how do I find that out. Nothing else matters until you get that question answered.

[tomspug]

Originally Posted by Mahonri_Moriancumer

I think the great thing about Latter-day Saint teachings is that any individual can find out if they are true or not. I am a convert to the religion and was impressed with the openness of the members to answer questions and answer them with assurity. When was of another faith, I often recall being told "that's just the way it is." Granted, there are some things that we don't know, but the big things, the essential things, are not kept from those who really take some time to investigate what these crazy Mormons keep preaching.

One verse that caught my eye in the Book of Mormon when I was an investigator (person checking the church out) was Moroni 10:3-5. One word in particular stood out, "not."

It reads,

And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

For me, Moroni (the author here) was daring me. As if he is saying, go ahead, if you don't believe me...ask God. In fact, ask him if it is not true.

My point in taking this tangent from discussion is that with Mormonism it is either true or false. If it is false, then we are done here. If it is true, then everything that comes with that is true: there was an apostacy, Christ did come to American and did visit even others (as mentioned in the Book of Mormon), etc.


The question that you really should be asking is whether the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's organization, kindom, religion, what have you...here on earth, and how do I find that out. Nothing else matters until you get that question answered.

Well, if you put it that way, a Muslim could dare themselves to ask THEIR God if their religion is, indeed, the true religion. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of Muslims that have done so and would tell you that they have heard God say that Islam was the true religion.

[Starfish]

Originally Posted by tomspug

Well, if you put it that way, a Muslim could dare themselves to ask THEIR God if their religion is, indeed, the true religion. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of Muslims that have done so and would tell you that they have heard God say that Islam was the true religion.

Then they should stay Muslim.

I can't understand why non-LDS struggle against the 'asking God' issue. It's so simple. Don't we want God's opinion on which church we should join? Do we believe he listens to our prayers, or do we not? Why is asking him, so controversial? My goodness, any 5 yr old would see the logic.

I do understand that people claim to get different answers. Then go with your answer. If God tells you to be Catholic, the be Catholic. If he tells you to be Muslim, be Muslim. How can that be? I don't know. I just know that he wants me to be LDS, so I am. And much of the answer I believe that I have from God is in the results. Being LDS has been a huge (major understatement) blessing to me and my family. So most of my answer from God came in the form of results. I tried it and it works.

In other words, I've lived by the teachings, found in the LDS Church, 100% and the blessings poured in. I know it, and I've seen it over and over again in many people besides myself. They call this gospel the "Plan of Happiness" and they weren't kidding.