LDS: I still don't get it (Jesus Christ, priest, Latter-Day Saints, moral)

[Starfish]

Originally Posted by Mahonri_Moriancumer

My comment about God wanting us to know the truth and that I have been able to know the truth regarding the Church of Jesus Christ was a simple statement of fact. I followed the instructions on the Mormon box, so to speak, and came to know that it is true. Although it maybe incorrectly interpreted as arrogant to state, the fact is that I personally know what God to follow and what church he has sanctioned on earth. It isn't something I believe strongly, I know. That should beg the question how do I know and how is someone who believes something else not on the right trail?

That was my final point with the scripture from Moroni. Don't just ask if the LDS faith is the right path but ask about any religion or philosophy. If there is a God, he wants us to ask. Why would he want to keep everything in the dark from us. That doesn’t make any sense. I personally know from my “experiments” that when I do what is asked it works out. Just like when my dad told me look both ways crossing the street. Every individual must do this for themselves.

I mean…there are really easy questions to ask to get to whether the LDS faith is what we LDS say it is. First, there either is a God (supreme being) or not. Which god is the right one is the next question and is there and organization, group, etc. that he sanctions or does he sanction all or none. Or maybe we don’t need a church at all. Then, if we decide there is a church…which church. Once you get here, it isn’t a question of who has the “better” church. We want to know the church God sanctions. Where am I going to be able to learn what God wants me to know without the philosophies of man getting in the way.

The Bible mentions that God had set up a kingdom, government, or let’s just say organization on earth. I think this whole thing is easier if we just think of a church as the government or organization of God on earth. Kind of like the Federal government has a federal building here where I live and in other parts of the nation. Now, if I have an issue and it falls under the federal government’s jurisdiction I don’t go to the state building. That’s just the way it is. It isn’t that the Fed building is better. They just have the authority to act on the issue at hand. Nobody gets upset over this fact.

All churches believe they are sanctioned or authorized by God, otherwise they would fold up their tents and go home. Mormon’s simply believe that when God sets up his church on earth he does it through a prophet (Amos 3:7) to whom God has given authority to act and speak in his name. Like Moses, Isaiah, or Peter. No one truly looking for the truth should be offended that we proclaim to be part of the only true church authorized by God (except people making a lot of money as leaders of other churches). I mean we don’t upset if someone tells us they are making more in a mutual fund that is different than ours. We don’t get upset when we find that our child would do better at a different school. But for some reason, we get upset at the notion that God does authorize our pastor, priest or rabbi.

So that is why we are saying here…ASK!! What harm can it do to ask God if these goofy Mormons got it right or wrong. If you can’t do that, then why worry about whether Jesus came to the Americas. It doesn’t matter.


The great thing is that if an individual does not want to ask or know that is their prerogative. But if a person will exercise a little faith (Alma 32:26,27) and just desire to know if their may be a God and which church, if any, that God sanctions, then all he have to do is ask (James 1:5). James 1:5 even says that you can ask God anything and he won’t get mad. And as far as the LDS God is concerned, the advice for everyone to ask God these questions regarding his existence is for everyone.

As a side note, Jesus most certainly did debate those who did not agree with him. Did he yell and swear at them? No. Did he even argue with them? Not that we have record of. Did he ever make any one upset by his teachings? Isn't that what lead to the desire to kill him?

One is able to debate without contention. Even today we are capable of non-contentious debate over issues. And finally, the suggestion that someone ask God if he exists and what church he sanctions is just that, a suggestion. For example, I love the restaurant Buca di Beppo, but if after telling you to just try it out you don't go...so what? I did what I wanted to do...tell a friend about a really good thing.

Exactly.

[madhatter85]

Originally Posted by Mahonri_Moriancumer

My comment about God wanting us to know the truth and that I have been able to know the truth regarding the Church of Jesus Christ was a simple statement of fact. I followed the instructions on the Mormon box, so to speak, and came to know that it is true. Although it maybe incorrectly interpreted as arrogant to state, the fact is that I personally know what God to follow and what church he has sanctioned on earth. It isn't something I believe strongly, I know. That should beg the question how do I know and how is someone who believes something else not on the right trail?

That was my final point with the scripture from Moroni. Don't just ask if the LDS faith is the right path but ask about any religion or philosophy. If there is a God, he wants us to ask. Why would he want to keep everything in the dark from us. That doesn’t make any sense. I personally know from my “experiments” that when I do what is asked it works out. Just like when my dad told me look both ways crossing the street. Every individual must do this for themselves.

I mean…there are really easy questions to ask to get to whether the LDS faith is what we LDS say it is. First, there either is a God (supreme being) or not. Which god is the right one is the next question and is there and organization, group, etc. that he sanctions or does he sanction all or none. Or maybe we don’t need a church at all. Then, if we decide there is a church…which church. Once you get here, it isn’t a question of who has the “better” church. We want to know the church God sanctions. Where am I going to be able to learn what God wants me to know without the philosophies of man getting in the way.

The Bible mentions that God had set up a kingdom, government, or let’s just say organization on earth. I think this whole thing is easier if we just think of a church as the government or organization of God on earth. Kind of like the Federal government has a federal building here where I live and in other parts of the nation. Now, if I have an issue and it falls under the federal government’s jurisdiction I don’t go to the state building. That’s just the way it is. It isn’t that the Fed building is better. They just have the authority to act on the issue at hand. Nobody gets upset over this fact.

All churches believe they are sanctioned or authorized by God, otherwise they would fold up their tents and go home. Mormon’s simply believe that when God sets up his church on earth he does it through a prophet (Amos 3:7) to whom God has given authority to act and speak in his name. Like Moses, Isaiah, or Peter. No one truly looking for the truth should be offended that we proclaim to be part of the only true church authorized by God (except people making a lot of money as leaders of other churches). I mean we don’t upset if someone tells us they are making more in a mutual fund that is different than ours. We don’t get upset when we find that our child would do better at a different school. But for some reason, we get upset at the notion that God does authorize our pastor, priest or rabbi.

So that is why we are saying here…ASK!! What harm can it do to ask God if these goofy Mormons got it right or wrong. If you can’t do that, then why worry about whether Jesus came to the Americas. It doesn’t matter.


The great thing is that if an individual does not want to ask or know that is their prerogative. But if a person will exercise a little faith (Alma 32:26,27) and just desire to know if their may be a God and which church, if any, that God sanctions, then all he have to do is ask (James 1:5). James 1:5 even says that you can ask God anything and he won’t get mad. And as far as the LDS God is concerned, the advice for everyone to ask God these questions regarding his existence is for everyone.

As a side note, Jesus most certainly did debate those who did not agree with him. Did he yell and swear at them? No. Did he even argue with them? Not that we have record of. Did he ever make any one upset by his teachings? Isn't that what lead to the desire to kill him?

One is able to debate without contention. Even today we are capable of non-contentious debate over issues. And finally, the suggestion that someone ask God if he exists and what church he sanctions is just that, a suggestion. For example, I love the restaurant Buca di Beppo, but if after telling you to just try it out you don't go...so what? I did what I wanted to do...tell a friend about a really good thing.

we need more people like you in the world today.

[tomspug]

Originally Posted by Mahonri_Moriancumer

My comment about God wanting us to know the truth and that I have been able to know the truth regarding the Church of Jesus Christ was a simple statement of fact. I followed the instructions on the Mormon box, so to speak, and came to know that it is true. Although it maybe incorrectly interpreted as arrogant to state, the fact is that I personally know what God to follow and what church he has sanctioned on earth. It isn't something I believe strongly, I know. That should beg the question how do I know and how is someone who believes something else not on the right trail?

That was my final point with the scripture from Moroni. Don't just ask if the LDS faith is the right path but ask about any religion or philosophy. If there is a God, he wants us to ask. Why would he want to keep everything in the dark from us. That doesn’t make any sense. I personally know from my “experiments” that when I do what is asked it works out. Just like when my dad told me look both ways crossing the street. Every individual must do this for themselves.

I mean…there are really easy questions to ask to get to whether the LDS faith is what we LDS say it is. First, there either is a God (supreme being) or not. Which god is the right one is the next question and is there and organization, group, etc. that he sanctions or does he sanction all or none. Or maybe we don’t need a church at all. Then, if we decide there is a church…which church. Once you get here, it isn’t a question of who has the “better” church. We want to know the church God sanctions. Where am I going to be able to learn what God wants me to know without the philosophies of man getting in the way.

The Bible mentions that God had set up a kingdom, government, or let’s just say organization on earth. I think this whole thing is easier if we just think of a church as the government or organization of God on earth. Kind of like the Federal government has a federal building here where I live and in other parts of the nation. Now, if I have an issue and it falls under the federal government’s jurisdiction I don’t go to the state building. That’s just the way it is. It isn’t that the Fed building is better. They just have the authority to act on the issue at hand. Nobody gets upset over this fact.

All churches believe they are sanctioned or authorized by God, otherwise they would fold up their tents and go home. Mormon’s simply believe that when God sets up his church on earth he does it through a prophet (Amos 3:7) to whom God has given authority to act and speak in his name. Like Moses, Isaiah, or Peter. No one truly looking for the truth should be offended that we proclaim to be part of the only true church authorized by God (except people making a lot of money as leaders of other churches). I mean we don’t upset if someone tells us they are making more in a mutual fund that is different than ours. We don’t get upset when we find that our child would do better at a different school. But for some reason, we get upset at the notion that God does authorize our pastor, priest or rabbi.

So that is why we are saying here…ASK!! What harm can it do to ask God if these goofy Mormons got it right or wrong. If you can’t do that, then why worry about whether Jesus came to the Americas. It doesn’t matter.


The great thing is that if an individual does not want to ask or know that is their prerogative. But if a person will exercise a little faith (Alma 32:26,27) and just desire to know if their may be a God and which church, if any, that God sanctions, then all he have to do is ask (James 1:5). James 1:5 even says that you can ask God anything and he won’t get mad. And as far as the LDS God is concerned, the advice for everyone to ask God these questions regarding his existence is for everyone.

As a side note, Jesus most certainly did debate those who did not agree with him. Did he yell and swear at them? No. Did he even argue with them? Not that we have record of. Did he ever make any one upset by his teachings? Isn't that what lead to the desire to kill him?

One is able to debate without contention. Even today we are capable of non-contentious debate over issues. And finally, the suggestion that someone ask God if he exists and what church he sanctions is just that, a suggestion. For example, I love the restaurant Buca di Beppo, but if after telling you to just try it out you don't go...so what? I did what I wanted to do...tell a friend about a really good thing.

Show me a verse where Jesus ever debated with anyone. Are you thinking of a particular verse or are you using a MENTAL IDEA of who Jesus was? This is just as unreliable a method as "asking God" is about determining truth. (you never addressed my point, btw. Do you not agree that someone can THINK they are asking God something but can, in fact, not be talking to Him at all?)

Here is what the Bible says about truth:

"If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free" - John 8:31,32

So according to Jesus, truth is not found in words. It is found through FAITH and through living your life according to the will of God. THROUGH that, the truth will become known, and it shall set you free.

Why put your faith in words, when Satan himself can speak the name of God? The word "God" itself can be used to describe literally millions of gods. I will argue this again. A man who believes that the sun is God can ask God a question and will believe it to be answered, why then do we put our faith so often in our RELIGIONS???

Religion is a dangerous thing for this reason. It is a VERY dangerous thing, because it focuses us instead of on God's Will on "God's Will" according to whomever... I do not put my faith in the Presbyterian Church or any other Christian Church, because they are led by FALLEN MEN, not angels or apostles who walked with Christ. They are faulty, just like me and you, and they can deceive themselves.

The good of religion comes from enhancing our faith, not determining it. Are there strong, good, and faithful Christian men of God? Yes! But they are by no means divine or a source of absolute truth.

You ask me to ask God if the LDS church is the one true church, but deep down in my soul I know that it is an arrogant, even STUPID question to ask the One True God. Do you know why? Because there never WAS a one true church! Christ came and died for EVERYONE. His salvation was for everyone and it will be for everyone who accepts him. No one needs ANY church.

That is the answer to your question. There is no one true church, and anyone that tells you differently is deceived.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one cometh unto the Father but through ME." - John 14:6

There is no need for this silly question about which church is the right church, because EVERYONE that believes in Christ is a member of the body of Christ. You heard it straight from the mouth of God Himself, Jesus Christ!

The idea comes to mind, "why ask a question of someone that has already given you the answer?"

You think that asking a question can be so simple, but think about WHY you are asking the question. You want a yes or no answer, but what if there IS NO YES OR NO ANSWER? Then what good is the question in the first place?

And I know, in the back of your mind, you're probably shaking your head, thinking "he can't even do something as simple as ask God something"?

But perhaps you have never considered something... "how hard is it to STOP asking questions and simply listen?"

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by tomspug

So according to Jesus, truth is not found in words.

Jesus said that truth is found in the "teachings" of Jesus Christ. Since He taught both through word and deed, I don't think we can quite so blithely as you do dismiss the idea that truth is found in words. It is found through FAITH and through living your life according to the will of God. THROUGH that, the truth will become known, and it shall set you free.

The good of religion comes from enhancing our faith, not determining it.

I like that!

You ask me to ask God if the LDS church is the one true church, but deep down in my soul I know that it is an arrogant, even STUPID question to ask the One True God.

So you reject the counsel found in James 1:5? "If any of youlack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." To me, this is saying that God wants us to ask Him for wisdom. Why do you see asking a question as arrogant? To me, assuming that we know the answer without asking is far more arrogant.

Do you know why? Because there never WAS a one true church!

Apparently you don't believe that Christ built the Church He said He was going to, then. What do you think changed His mind about doing so?

Christ came and died for EVERYONE. His salvation was for everyone and it will be for everyone who accepts him. No one needs ANY church.

Well, in one respect, I agree with you but in another, I disagree. To elaborate would probably involve a far lengthier post than I am in the mood to write or you in the mood to read.

There is no need for this silly question about which church is the right church, because EVERYONE that believes in Christ is a member of the body of Christ. You heard it straight from the mouth of God Himself, Jesus Christ!

An oversimplification, to my way of thinking, but again, I really don't feel like arguing the point since your mind is already made up. It would be a complete waste of my time and yours.

[tomspug]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

So you reject the counsel found in James 1:5? "If any of youlack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."

First of all, at least acknowledge the point I was trying to make. The key point you're ignoring is the lack of necessity of ASKING the question you are referring to.

"If any of you lack wisdom..."

If something is already obvious in the scriptures, then an insistence upon some personal divine revelation is nothing more than vanity.

What I meant by not trusting "words" is that words have no value without action. This is why Jesus's life meant nothing if he wasn't a living manifestation of God Himself. Even if Jesus was a wise prophet, all of his teachings would have meant nothing if he could not actually do what he said was his purpose. But the purpose he claimed for himself was one that, in prophecy, could only be fulfilled by God Himself: namely, the forgiveness of sins, atonement, "making" things new, raising the dead, etc.

Apparently you don't believe that Christ built the Church He said He was going to, then. What do you think changed His mind about doing so?

Apparently, you misunderstood me. I clearly said that there is no ONE true church. The reason I said this was not to say that there is NO church, but that we are "a priesthood of all believers" as described numerous times by Paul. This fact alone invalidates the proposed question entirely. It's like asking who was the greatest apostle or the greatest prophet? It doesn't matter! They are all servants of God!

Just because MY mind is made up isn't an excuse to end a conversation. By ending a conversation for that reason, you are implying that the only value in such a conversation is to change the other person's mind. I hope you see the arrogance of that. There is nothing wrong with discussing alternative views. In fact, I see it as the basic building blocks of loving people and reaching out to them through Christ is to listen and attempt to understand people, their beliefs, and their experiences. So I would encourage you to not end this discussion for the reason that you just brought up.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by tomspug

First of all, at least acknowledge the point I was trying to make. The key point you're ignoring is the lack of necessity of ASKING the question you are referring to. If something is already obvious in the scriptures, then an insistence upon some personal divine revelation is nothing more than vanity.

If something was already obvious in the scriptures, you point would be well-taken. The fact that over 30,000 different Christian denominations exist today ought to make it pretty darned clear that what may be obvious to you, isn't all that obvious to everyone else. Don't you think that every one of these denominations exists because of differences of interpretation as to what the scriptures are saying? We're having this conversation because we don't agree on what the scriptures are saying. How on earth can asking God for guidance in the matter be vanity? Of all the Apostles, Peter alone had a firm conviction of who the Savior really was -- the Son of the Living God. Didn't the Savior make a point of telling him how blessed he was because he hadn't come by this knowledge through any means but by revelation from his Father in Heaven?

What I meant by not trusting "words" is that words have no value without action. This is why Jesus's life meant nothing if he wasn't a living manifestation of God Himself. Even if Jesus was a wise prophet, all of his teachings would have meant nothing if he could not actually do what he said was his purpose. But the purpose he claimed for himself was one that, in prophecy, could only be fulfilled by God Himself: namely, the forgiveness of sins, atonement, "making" things new, raising the dead, etc.

I evidently misunderstood you then. I totally agree with everything you said in this paragraph.

Apparently, you misunderstood me. I clearly said that there is no ONE true church. The reason I said this was not to say that there is NO church, but that we are "a priesthood of all believers" as described numerous times by Paul. This fact alone invalidates the proposed question entirely. It's like asking who was the greatest apostle or the greatest prophet? It doesn't matter! They are all servants of God!

Here's where we disagree. The Apostles obviously held authority that not all members of the early Church held. Jesus specifically gave Peter the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven and told him that with these keys, he would have the power to bind in Heaven those things that he would bind on earth. Had there been no difference in Peter's authority and the authority of every other person who believed in His gospel, Jesus wouldn't have ever bothered to give that authority to Peter. The apostles were appointed for a specific purpose and given the power and authority to do what others did not have the power or authority to do. Perhaps you could enumerate the "numerous times" Paul refers to the priesthood of all believers and I could do the same with the instances in which authority is clearly given by the laying on of hands by one already holding it.

Just because MY mind is made up isn't an excuse to end a conversation. By ending a conversation for that reason, you are implying that the only value in such a conversation is to change the other person's mind. I hope you see the arrogance of that.

You know, I really wish you would stop implying that I'm arrogant. That's really kind of insulting and I don't believe it's warranted.

There is nothing wrong with discussing alternative views. In fact, I see it as the basic building blocks of loving people and reaching out to them through Christ is to listen and attempt to understand people, their beliefs, and their experiences. So I would encourage you to not end this discussion for the reason that you just brought up.

I agree. I just wasn't up to an argument last night, and it appeared as if that's where this discussion was headed.

[Mahonri_Moriancumer]

As far as your question, of course people can talk to God and seemingly receive answers that are not truly from God. We Mormons run into these types all the time in our own religion. People who think God spoke to them to do odd stuff. The FLDS is a prime example. At some point, their founder asked and got an answer. They choice to continue with polygamy. We all encounter this. Often we mistake our desires for those of God. We are deceived by the devil. However, this does not mean we should not ask and converse with God. It does not mean that God doesn't answer prayer. And finally, it definitely does not mean that God has not provided a medium to know when he has answered his prayers, the Holy Ghost (John 14:26;15:26) One thing Mormons work on is recognizing and understanding the Holy Ghost. We understand from that we must be in tune with the Spirit to be able to hear or feel of its influence in our lives. Thus the importance of keeping the commandments. Do we get it wrong and understand something to be from God that isn't? All the time. That is part of the journey and process.

As far as Faith and Words, I agree. However, how do you know what you are to do save it is by words or communications? Why did Moses come down the hill with a written text? So that the people could exercise their faith by keeping the commandments. And to come full circle here, one commandment is to pray (Matt 26:41). And as Jesus taught with the "Our Father" (an instruction on how and not meant to be the vainly repeated pray it has become), we should thank God in our prayers and later ask him for the things that we need. Why would we be commanded to pray if he never intended to answer us. Thus James 1:5 and right back to saying to you that if you want to know if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (The only church to bears his name), or any other church, is the church we here have said it is.

One other point on words...the devil does attempt to mimic God. Jesus addressed it when discussing the advent of false prophets...by their fruits ye shall know them. For example, we know the devil cannot imitate the Holy Ghost (Galatians 5:22, 23). The thing is about this journey of recognizing the Holy Ghost is that as you go along you are better able to recognize it as you sense it. Also, as you keep the commandments or exercise faith, their is a positive reaction to our faith. So, for example, I have faith that if I follow the instructions on putting my entertainment together, it will look like it does on the box when I am done. I don't know that the instructions are correct. However, once it is together, my faith is justified. Also, it will be much easier to build another EC on my own in the future and I will have faith in other instructions to build my kids bike.

Now, it is also noteworthy to mention that the first principles and ordinances (or rather the basics for LDS) is Faith on Jesus Christ, Repentance, Baptism by Immersion for the remission of sins, and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. So, of course you must exercise faith beyond any words. We do not believe as some that you may recite a few lines confessing your belief in Christ to be saved.

I'm not sure I understand you point about someone praying to the sun believing it to be God. But really it just goes back to Jesus' admonition to beware of false prophets and that by their fruits we should know them. A lost truth is that God does answer prayers...the Sun, Zeus, or any god never do. The bottom line here is that the God LDS members believe in answers prayers. He does not leave us in mystery like