LDS: I still don't get it (Jesus Christ, priest, Latter-Day Saints, moral)

[tomspug]

Originally Posted by Starfish

Believe it or not, the animosity is mostly one-sided. We really don't feel it towards other churches. That's why we aren't in other religion forums, debating their doctrines. We just defend our own. I have a lot of respect for other religions, and I learned that respect in my own church. At least this is my experience. Until coming online, I've had very little exposure to other religions and just assumed we were all God-fearing folks.

Yes, the animosity is one-sided. But that is because it is Mormonism that attempts to set itself apart from other forms of Christianity. Why would you have animosity for other religions you view as incomplete or inferior?

[tomspug]

I don't really understand what you are trying to say here.

What I was trying to say is that the faults of individuals have no impact on the Gospel. It's truth is in no way diluted or corrupted. God could use you or I to speak to those he loves just as easily as a non-believer. Heck, he used a donkey! Our "holiness" and "rightness" in no way enhances God's love or his message. Our ministry is a service to God, for his glory. It is nothing more than that.

God doesn't need us to save the world. He could do it without us if he wanted to, but he chooses to do so because he loves us and wants to give us the opportunity to glorify Him. That is ultimately what I am hoping that you can understand, that this sainthood and priesthood stuff is fine, but it absolutely isn't necessary. And I think the Bible backs me up here to say so.

This is what God's glory is all about. It has nothing to do with what we achieve. God achieves it through us, and he can use anybody. In fact, I believe he DOES use everybody. And in that respect, no man can say that they are any better than the other because...

1) we are all sinners, and thus we cannot compare ourselves to each other
and
2) everything we have and have done, was all by God's Will, so we don't get any credit anyways.

So with these things in mind, how important does it really seem to have doctrines that attempt to discern between those that are serving God? What distinction is there between Mormons, Evangelicals, Catholics, Jews? There isn't one, as long as we are spreading God's gospel, which is salvation through Christ.

[Starfish]

Originally Posted by tomspug

Yes, the animosity is one-sided. But that is because it is Mormonism that attempts to set itself apart from other forms of Christianity. Why would you have animosity for other religions you view as incomplete or inferior?

But you HAVE animosity (as you said) for a religion that you obviouly view as incomplete and inferior. I don't get it.

[tomspug]

Originally Posted by Starfish

But you HAVE animosity (as you said) for a religion that you obviouly view as incomplete and inferior. I don't get it.

I don't have any animosity. I'm saying it exists with understandable reason.

And if you read my post above, OBVIOUSLY I don't view anyone who is spreading the Gospel as inferior. Comparison, in my view, has no purpose in serving God.

[Starfish]

Originally Posted by tomspug

I don't have any animosity. I'm saying it exists with understandable reason.

Okay, I misunderstood. No, wait. I still don't get it (Hey . . . thread title). Why does anyone (if not you) have animosity against a "tree that produces good fruit".

[Scott C.]

Originally Posted by tomspug

My question is: Why did Jesus come to America? I just don't get it.

It seems to defeat the purpose of everything. He came to the remote nation of Israel, born into a tiny, insignificant town and an insignificant family. He died like a criminal and began his revolution with insignificant commoners like fisherman and tax-collectors.

So what was the significance of coming to America OTHER than "because of Mormonism". Why did Jesus not appear anywhere else? It just makes no sense to me. All of Jesus's actions in the New Testament were a fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy. It was as if his very existence was governed by them. And yet there is no reference in the New Testament that seems to point to another, reformed church. There is no prophecy that indicates that anything truths would be lost over time.

And that brings up another question. If the Bible is God's Word, why would he allow it to be altered? Would God allow his word to slowly be corrupted over time, deceiving not simply the foolish, but entire generations of wise and learned and faithful people? Imagine, for a moment, that you yourselves were growing up under the Roman Catholic Church of the first millennium. You believe with all your heart that the book you are taught is the authoritative word of God. How is that any different from how you live now?

The difference, of course, is that over time Mormonism doctrine has been slightly altered, for the purpose of clarification. Meanwhile, when we look at original Greek texts from the first hundred years after Jesus was resurrected, we find that the Bible we have now is NEAR IDENTICAL to what Christians believed in the time of Paul and of Constantine.

So if the truths are NOT corrupted and not changed over time by a corrupt church, then exactly what is the point of Jesus's Second Ministry and the Latter-Day Saints?

I think your questions are good and fair. I'll take a shot at giving you my LDS viewpoint...

The story of Jesus born in Bethlehem in humble circumstances, the calling of fishermen and simple men as his disciples, the miraculous growth of Christianity from its beginnings to fill much of the world are true and wonderful stories. The restoration does not take away from anything wonderful that happened from the time of Christ forward.

As a Mormon, I see the Bible as unique in many ways. While I don't see it as the only scripture or as superior scripture, I see it as unique in the fact that it delivers the story of Jesus and how his gospel spread because of his life and teachings. The Bible delivers its message in a way that only the Bible can and has its unique perspective as we read from eye witness accounts of the life of Christ. I don't feel that I lose any of that as an LDS who believes in additional scripture. When a Christian embraces the restored Gospel, they do not give up their beautiful heritage.

If I were alive in the first millenium and believed in Catholicism with all of my heart, I would be on God's side. I would have never received the ordinances necessary for salvation and I would believe some false doctrines, but so what? Billions of people live and die without the ordinances of salvation and without understanding true doctrine. God makes allowance for them in the next life. They will have the opportunity to hear and accept the fullness of the Gospel in the hereafter. God did not intend that all mankind would have all of the truth all of the time. We live our lives with what we know and do the best we can. God will judge us by what we have, not by what we do not have.

Having said that, I believe the message of my church is crucial. It offers ordinances and restored doctrine that are necessary for salvation. While allowance is made for those who don't get the message in this life, the sooner we learn and accept, the better off we are.

I have trouble understanding why Protestants have trouble with the apostasy. If there were no apostasy, there would have been no need for a reformation and everyone would be Catholic, which would be the correct church. I simply believe that the reformation was a prelude to a more profound and signifcant return to New Testament Christianity, which required more than good men reading the Bible, but required new Apostles and revelation from Heaven to sift out false traditions. In other words, the Reformers got a lot right, but not everything. They needed further light from heaven which came in the 1800's.

Here's a story from LDS Church history which you may find hard to believe, but I'll share it for your interest anyway. This is a quotation from President WIlford Woodruff, our Prophet in the late 1800's:

"Another thing I am going to say here, because I have a right to say it. Every one of those men that signed the Declaration of Independence with General Washington, called upon me as an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, in the Temple at St. George, two consecutive nights, and demanded at my hands that I should go forth and attend to the ordinances of the House of God for them. Men are here, I believe, that know of this, Brother J. D. T. McAllister, David H. Cannon and James S. Bleak. Brother McAllister baptized me for all those men, and then I told these brethren that it was their duty to go into the temple and labor until they had got endowments for all of them. They did it. Would those spirits have called upon me as an elder of Israel, to perform that work, if they had not been noble spirits before God? They would not. I bear this testimony because it is true. The Spirit of God bore record to myself and the brethren while we were laboring in that way."

The founding fathers of the U.S. were great men called of God to raise up this nation. They lived in a day when Christianity was on the earth, but not the fullness, not the ordinances and the necessary keys of the Priesthood. It was their lot to live in such a day. I imagine as Christians they believed some false doctrine, traditions passed down over the ages. But, so what? They were among the greatest spirits God could find to do a great work to establish the United States of America. They helped to estbalish the very nation where freedom would be sufficient to allow the restored Gospel and Church of Christ to grow and succeed. Now, in the world of spirits, they were very aware of the latter-day restoration and were allowed to appear to a prophet of God on earth and demand that the saving ordinances be performed in their behalf in the temple. After all, the Prophet was no greater than they, he just happened to hold the keys to perform the ordinances in their behalf.

So, we have strong Christians raised up by God to do a great work. And yet, they lacked some of what was needed for their eternal salvation, the saving ordinances. In due time, they received what they needed. They completed their errand from the Lord in this life and were blessed in time and eternity.

So apostasies, restorations, priesthood keys, revelation from heaven, scriptures, faithfullness, corruption of truth, deception, false doctrine, murder in the name of Jesus, compasionate service, selfllessness and charity in the same name, they all happen at different times and in different ways and in different places. Some people are blessed with a lot of truth and do little with it. Others are blessed with little truth and do a lot with it. God allows our free will, including to corrupt the truth we have received. But, God is at the helm. The Second Coming is drawing near and God in his infinite wisdom, as ordained from the beginning of time, restored Christianity and all of it components one last time before the Savior returns, to prepare the world for what is to come.

I know I didn't address all of your points, but I'm trying to help you "get it" from this LDS perspective.

[tomspug]

Originally Posted by Starfish

Okay, I misunderstood. No, wait. I still don't get it (Hey . . . thread title). Why does anyone (if not you) have animosity against a "tree that produces good fruit".

Can you blame people for their own insecurities? Man is man. And yes, even in the Mormon church you see the same kinds of prejudices and animosities. No people is so righteous that they don't have any bigotry or hatred.

[tomspug]

Originally Posted by Scott C.