Christians--Do Evangelicals Believe Everyone Else Going to Hell? (Jesus Christ, gospel)

[uss_bigd]

Originally Posted by IIChr7:14

Actually what buhbee say's, what about those illiterate people in the third world are they condemned to hell?

If I may add, how about mongoloids, countries where bible is prohibited are they too condemned to hell?

Let us consult the scriptures,

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So if faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes from the word of God.

How can someone have faith if he does'nt hear the word of God?
How can you therefore believe in Christ and have faith if you dont hear the word of God?

If these kind of people who in no other way have heard the word of God, I believe they HAVE a chance for salvation. Moreso to illiterate people who does'nt know Abc's and have no chance to hear the word of God.

My God is a God of justice. He will give justice to every man on what is due to him.

Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

God will show mercy on WHOMEVER he wants to have mercy.
And by the word "whomever" surely that includes illiterate, mongolids, gays, and those people who did not believe in Christ because they did not have a chance to hear the words of God.

So who am I to condemn someone who will have the mercy of God. God Forbid!

Am I going to argue with God on His judgement? God Forbid!

As God said in,
Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

My thoughts are nothing compared to Him neither are my ways.
To God be the glory.

nice

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by Ratiocinative

As I said before, if the Bible says that people can be saved without believing in Christ, then prove it. Quote a scripture that shows someone being saved without believing in Christ. Otherwise you're just making stuff up.

Romans 1 - 2 makes the case that those who have never known Christ can be saved. Indeed, some of these people will condemn so-called Christians on the Last Day.

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by Comprehend

That my friend is what we call circular logic...

All logic worth its salt is circular. But that aside, it's not viciously circular. If the statement had meant there were many gods, we would expect Jews, the stewards of the document that bears the term, to believe in many gods. But they don't. They themselves say it doesn't mean that there are many gods. Rather, they themselves (and the Christians who inherited the document from them) have always affirmed that it doesn't imply a plurality of gods, but is a facon de parler intended to imply the majesty, not the plurality, of the speaker. Hence the parallel with kings and queens using "us" to refer to themselves. Therefore, without EXTREMELY compelling reasons to think that Jews as a whole don't understand their own language and the conventions that govern its use, I think we should align our understanding with them. Comprehend?

[Orontes]

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

This is getting WAY past the topic of this thread, but I restate what I've said elsewhere on this topic. My bible says the same as yours:

Then God said, ‘Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.’

"Us" does not imply plurality. Here God is speaking in the same way as, say, the Queen of England does when she says "we" to mean "I". In linguistic terms, this is called "the plurality of majesty."

If it meant actual plurality, we would expect the Jewish people to believe in many gods. But they don't. So it doesn't.

Hello,

If I may intrude a bit, to apply the pluralis majestatis to Hebrew texts would be anachronistic. No such phrasing existed in antiquity or within Hebrew parlance. As to any strict Jewish monotheism: this is a dated position. There is a well established academic literature that covers the moves from within Jewry from a monolatrous to monotheistic view. This understanding involves textual criticism, comparisons of the Hebrew Bible with the Dead Sea Scrolls material, Ugaritic texts and archeological studies. In simple terms, Hebrew metaphysical claims were not static.

Here's a few examples from the literature:


"The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel's Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts"

"Did God Have A Wife? Archeology And Folk Religion In Ancient Israel"

"The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God"


I've not followed your discussion, but if one posits a Judaism that has always been a strict monotheism, then that undercuts any subsequent Christian Trinitarian claims, unless one opts for a modalism.

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by Orontes

Hello,

If I may intrude a bit, to apply the pluralis majestatis to Hebrew texts would be anachronistic. No such phrasing existed in antiquity or within Hebrew parlance. As to any strict Jewish monotheism: this is a dated position. There is a well established academic literature that covers the moves from within Jewry from a monolatrous to monotheistic view. This understanding involves textual criticism, comparisons of the Hebrew Bible with the Dead Sea Scrolls material, Ugaritic texts and archeological studies. In simple terms, Hebrew metaphysical claims were not static.

Here's a few examples from the literature:


"The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel's Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts"

"Did God Have A Wife? Archeology And Folk Religion In Ancient Israel"

"The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God"


I've not followed your discussion, but if one posits a Judaism that has always been a strict monotheism, then that undercuts any subsequent Christian Trinitarian claims, unless one opts for a modalism.

Modalism is merely one way of understanding trinitarianism. Nicean trinitarian preserves monotheism -- that was the whole point.

But you raise a good point about anachronism. And there's no doubt that the Jewish community changed their ideas about the deity over time. I'm only concerned, though, with the view expressed in the documents we have. We can get turned around in circles with textual criticism because the only limiting factor in those investigations are the imaginations of the scholars. So it's safe to say that there's little of value in searching out sources and tracing developments. Occasionally, it may be helpful, but generally not.

Suffice to say that the Jews who wrote and cherished Genesis believed in creational, covenantal monotheism. They didn't believe in many gods. In fact, Genesis was intended to counter Mesopotamian polytheism. So there can be no question that "us" implied a plurality of gods. For the writer of Genesis, there was one and only one God, and he was Israel's god. This god created the world and made a covenant with Israel to be their god and they his people.

[Ratiocinative]

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

Romans 1 - 2 makes the case that those who have never known Christ can be saved. Indeed, some of these people will condemn so-called Christians on the Last Day.

ROFL? Romans 1 is the WORST chapter to cite if you're trying to argue that people can be saved without knowing Christ. It says that people have no excuse whatsoever for knowing God, and that people have every opportunity to know about God but that they deliberately choose to believe lies about God rather than the truth(v18-23). Paul also says that he isn't ashamed of the good news about Christ which saves everyone who believes, that this salvation is accomplished from beginning to end by faith, and then he quotes Hab 2:4, which is "The righteous will live by faith"(v16-17). All of this in Romans 1.

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by Ratiocinative

ROFL? Romans 1 is the WORST chapter to cite if you're trying to argue that people can be saved without knowing Christ. It says that people have no excuse whatsoever for knowing God, and that people have every opportunity to know about God but that they deliberately choose to believe lies about God rather than the truth(v18-23). Paul also says that he isn't ashamed of the good news about Christ which saves everyone who believes, that this salvation is accomplished from beginning to end by faith, and then he quotes Hab 2:4, which is "The righteous will live by faith"(v16-17). All of this in Romans 1.

Romans 2:3 - 11 Do you imagine, whoever you are, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgement of God? Or do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not realize that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgement will be revealed. For he will repay according to each one’s deeds: to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give eternal life; while for those who are self-seeking and who obey not the truth but wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be anguish and distress for everyone who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honour and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.

The bolded text applies to everyone -- Jews, Christians, and otherwise. It therefore applies to those who don't know Christ. The person who does not know Christ will be judged based on the totality of the life lived -- as will the Christian.

So ROFL if you like.....

[Ratiocinative]

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

Romans 2:3 - 11 Do you imagine, whoever you are, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgement of God? Or do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not realize that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgement will be revealed. For he will repay according to each one’s deeds: to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give eternal life; while for those who are self-seeking and who obey not the truth but wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be anguish and distress for everyone who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honour and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.

The bolded text applies to everyone -- Jews, Christians, and otherwise. It therefore applies to those who don't know Christ. The person who does not know Christ will be judged based on the totality of the life lived -- as will the Christian.

So ROFL if you like.....

The only thing bold about your post is how boldly you take things out of context. Paul is writing to the Jews about the fact that God doesn't play favorites and that the Jews aren't going to be saved simply because they are Jews. He isn't telling them they are saved by their works, which is why the word saved never even appears in chapter 2, he's telling them that it isn't merely knowing the law that brings God's approval, but actually doing it (which he says in 2:13).

He goes on in the next couple chapters to talk about how the Gentiles and Jews are the same, they all can be saved if they have faith, and if they don't then they won't. Paul clearly preaches through his letters that the only way to be saved is to believe in Christ, as do the other apostles. To claim that any of the New Testament writers, especially Paul, preached anything other than salvation through faith in Christ alone shows that you lack even the most basic of reading comprehension skills. It can easily be seen that Paul teaches that we are saved by faith in Christ, and nothing else, because he says it over and over and over and over and over again. Just look at how many times Paul mentions Christ, faith, and the law only brings condemnation. To cling to vague out of context interpretations shows that you have no real concern for what the text actually says, just how you can twist it to say what you want it to.

Romans 3:21-31 (KJV)
[21] But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; [22] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: [23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; [24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: [25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; [26] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. [27] Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. [28] Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. [29] Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: [30] Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. [31] Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 4:1-16 (KJV)
[1] What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? [2] For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. [3] For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. [4] Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. [5] But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. [6] Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, [7] Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. [8] Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. [9] Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. [10] How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. [11] And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: [12] And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. [13] For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. [14] For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: [15] Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. [16] Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Romans 5:1-11 (KJV)
[1] Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: [2] By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. [3] And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; [4] And patience, experience; and experience, hope: [5] And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. [6] For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. [7] For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. [8] But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. [9] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. [10] For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. [11] And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Romans 6:1-15 (KJV)
[1] What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? [2] God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? [3] Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? [4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also