Do differences in practices of faith mean we follow the same Jesus Christ? (reject, gospel)

[uss_bigd]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

You would probably tell me that I'm misled, but I would have to disagree.

I made no such conclusion ma'm...

[Orontes]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I think, though, that it would be safe to say that most Christians believe that they are, in fact, following the Jesus who was depicted in the Bible. The problem is that we all interpret what the Bible has to say about Jesus in slightly different ways. Personally, I would never feel justified in telling another Christian that he believed in the "wrong Jesus," a "different Jesus," or a "counterfeit Jesus" -- as many a Christian has said to me.

Hello,

I see where you are coming from. The thrust of this thread as I understand it is: one, the question of whether difference in faith practices constitute belief/worship of a different Christ. Two, that any truth claims that contradict cannot both be true. If one admits there are differences and people are making truth claims about those differences then where conflicting claims rub up against each other would seem to cancel out at least one of the claims. This seems reasonable to me.

As to differences: tabling the question of practice and simply looking at claims about Christ, I think clear distinctions can be pointed out. For example, a Christ that admits to transubstantiation, per Roman Catholic Theology is different metaphysically than a Christ whose being isn't affected by the Eucharist. Similarly, a Christ engaged in double predestination, per Calvinist Theology is different than a Christ who isn't tied to any determinism.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Orontes

Hello,

I see where you are coming from. The thrust of this thread as I understand it is: one, the question of whether difference in faith practices constitute belief/worship of a different Christ. Two, that any truth claims that contradict cannot both be true. If one admits there are differences and people are making truth claims about those differences then where conflicting claims rub up against each other would seem to cancel out at least one of the claims. This seems reasonable to me.

As to differences: tabling the question of practice and simply looking at claims about Christ, I think clear distinctions can be pointed out. For example, a Christ that admits to transubstantiation, per Roman Catholic Theology is different metaphysically than a Christ whose being isn't affected by the Eucharist. Similarly, a Christ engaged in double predestination, per Calvinist Theology is different than a Christ who isn't tied to any determinism.

There is only one Christ. It is our perceptions and our understanding of Him that differ. If you were to tell me that George Bush is the greatest President to have ever led this country, the most honest, the most trustworthy, the most intelligent, the most articulate, etc. etc. etc., and I were to tell you pretty much the opposite, would we be speaking of the same George Bush? I think we would be, even though our opionions of him were very different. There are some pretty straightforward things the Bible says about Jesus Christ:

1. He was the Son of God.
2. He as the Creator of our universe.
3. His birth was foretold by the ancient prophets.
4. He was born in Bethelem to a virgin, of the house of David.
5. He led a sinless life.
6. He called twelve to serve as His Apostles.
7. He taught a gospel of love, and encouraged forgiveness and charity.
8. He performed many miracles, including bringing the dead back to life.
9. He was betrayed by one of His friends.
10. He offered Himself up as a sacrifice to atone for the sins of all who would follow Him.
11. He rose again on the third day after His death by crucifixion.
12. He ascended to reign in Heaven where He sits today on the right hand of God.

Now maybe I'm wrong, but I can't think offhand of any Christian denomination that would not accept these twelve essential points about Jesus Christ. Isn't a common belief in those twelve things sufficient to say that we believe in the "same Jesus Christ"?

[Ratiocinative]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

There is only one Christ. It is our perceptions and our understanding of Him that differ. If you were to tell me that George Bush is the greatest President to have ever led this country, the most honest, the most trustworthy, the most intelligent, the most articulate, etc. etc. etc., and I were to tell you pretty much the opposite, would we be speaking of the same George Bush? I think we would be, even though our opionions of him were very different. There are some pretty straightforward things the Bible says about Jesus Christ:

1. He was the Son of God.
2. He as the Creator of our universe.
3. His birth was foretold by the ancient prophets.
4. He was born in Bethelem to a virgin, of the house of David.
5. He led a sinless life.
6. He called twelve to serve as His Apostles.
7. He taught a gospel of love, and encouraged forgiveness and charity.
8. He performed many miracles, including bringing the dead back to life.
9. He was betrayed by one of His friends.
10. He offered Himself up as a sacrifice to atone for the sins of all who would follow Him.
11. He rose again on the third day after His death by crucifixion.
12. He ascended to reign in Heaven where He sits today on the right hand of God.

Now maybe I'm wrong, but I can't think offhand of any Christian denomination that would not accept these twelve essential points about Jesus Christ. Isn't a common belief in those twelve things sufficient to say that we believe in the "same Jesus Christ"?

You seem to always forget to mention that there only one God and no others, though I know why you always do of course. You also left out salvation through faith and number 7 is also wrong. The gospel isn't love. God wants us to love others, but that isn't what the gospel is about. The gospel is that you were lost in your sin and headed to hell, but God became human to save you with his own blood. And the only way to receive that salvation is through faith in Christ alone. These three things are the core message of the Bible, how could you forget them so easily?

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Ratiocinative

These three things are the core message of the Bible, how could you forget them so easily?

I thought we were speaking specifically about Jesus Christ, not about the Bible. I didn't forget anything, but I didn't want to go off-topic, so I didn't mention original sin or salvation or some of the things you felt I should have. I stuck to what I believe about Jesus Christ. I'm sorry you don't believe that Jesus Christ's gospel was about love. I guess that's one thing we differ on. I would agree with you that the "gospel" specifically refers to the "good news" about the fact that He was our Savior and was prepared to die so that we might be reconciled to God. When I said that He taught a gospel of love, mercy and forgiveness, I was speaking of the attributes He domonstrated in His own life, and which He told us to emulate. Which of the other twelve items I mentioned do you disagree with?

[Ratiocinative]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I thought we were speaking specifically about Jesus Christ, not about the Bible. I didn't forget anything, but I didn't want to go off-topic, so I didn't mention original sin or salvation or some of the things you felt I should have. I stuck to what I believe about Jesus Christ. I'm sorry you don't believe that Jesus Christ's gospel was about love. I guess that's one thing we differ on. Which of the other twelve items I mentioned do you disagree with?

Last time I checked, the Bible talks about Christ. A lot. It's no wonder your understanding of Christ and the gospel is wrong, since you ignore what the Bible says. If you don't believe that there is only one God, that Christ came to purchase his people who were lost in sin, and that believing in him is the only way to be saved, then you certainly are talking about a different Christ than the one mentioned in the Bible.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Ratiocinative

Last time I checked, the Bible talks about Christ. A lot.

Great, that's something we agree on, because the last time I checked, that's what I found, too.

It's no wonder your understanding of Christ and the gospel is wrong, since you ignore what the Bible says.

Actually, you've never mentioned anything in the Bible that I ignore. Furthermore, you didn't answer my question. Would you mind?

If you don't believe that there is only one God, that Christ came to purchase his people who were lost in sin, and that believing in him is the only way to be saved, then you certainly are talking about a different Christ than the one mentioned in the Bible.

Well, I do believe those things, so I guess I believe in the same Christ you do. (By the way, how many Christs do you believe there are to choose from?)

[Ratiocinative]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Actually, you've never mentioned anything in the Bible that I ignore. Furthermore, you didn't answer my question. Would you mind?

None other than seven, just that the list is missing the most important things about Christ.

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Well, I do believe those things, so I guess I believe in the same Christ you do. (By the way, how many Christs do you believe there are to choose from?)

Well its great that you do, but you shouldn't be so quick to leave them out of such a list.

Originally Posted by Katzpur

(By the way, how many Christs do you believe there are to choose from?)

Real ones? Only one. But there are as many fictional ones as people choose to invent.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Ratiocinative

None other than seven, just that the list is missing the most important things about Christ.

Nonsense! Nothing is more important than the fact that Jesus Christ is our Savior!