Do differences in practices of faith mean we follow the same Jesus Christ? (reject, gospel)

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by IIChr7:14

1Corinthians 4:9 For I think that God has exhibited us apostles as last of all, like men sentenced to death, because we have become a spectacle to the world, to angels, and to men.

Paul was not referring to an ordinal of place but he was talking of an ordinal time because he said "like all men sentenced to death" men were appointed to die. He was clearly saying that they were the last apostles to be sent.

in hebrews chapter 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Unto the succession of apostleship(men) the apostles were the last.

In our time there are still apostles(men),
2Corinthians 11:13 "For such arefalseapostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ."

The bible warns us of these apostles, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. I have an apostle who is Christ, not men who are calling themselves to be the apostle of Christ in our time.

This smacks of proof-texting, which is probably why USS applauds it.
I disagree that Paul is talking about an ordinal of time. Paul is talking about an ordinal of place. See Matt. 20:16. Especially since he's juxtaposing the teaching of the apostles against the teaching of scripture. the apostles come last -- the scriptures come first.

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by IIChr7:14

1Corinthians 4:9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

"Last"
G2078
ἔσχατος
eschatos
es'-khat-os
A superlative probably from G2192 (in the sense of contiguity); farthest, final (of place or time): - ends of, last, latter end, lowest, uttermost.

Biblically speaking the apostles were sent last.

This does not disprove an ordinal of place...

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by IIChr7:14

In Chapter 4 Paul was teaching humility to his brethren because some were puffed up or arrogant 1Cor 4:18 as though they have not receive 1Cor 4:7. They even go beyond what was written 1 Cor 4:6 because there are some in the brethren who were high minded.
He gave himself(Paul) as an example of being an apostle but did not seek glory of his own but as a servant of Christ 1Cor 4:1 with all humility, to teach some brethren who're boasting as though they did not receive it.

That's why he said in 1 Cor 4:14 "I do not write these things to make you ashamed" Even though Paul was an apostle of Christ he did not think highly of himself but with all humilty 1Cor 4:10-11 So he was teaching them to humble themselves not because he wanted them to be ashamed but because he love them so he corrected them.
So thats what he want also to see from his brethren not to think highly of themselves, but be imitators of him(Paul) 1Cor 4:16.
So he was not talking ordinal place of being an apostle last place among the Church. But rather ordinal in time because they were appointed to death.

And as the whole context of chapter 4 says he is one of the last apostles to be sent, an apostle who is a servant of Christ who does not seek his own glory but the glory of God, unlike some brethren in Corinthians.

Your eisegesis is showing.

[doppelgänger]

Originally Posted by uss_bigd

yes or no and why.

It depends on the person doing the assessing. If those differences are significant and recognized by someone as distinguishing those who "follow Jesus Christ" from those who "don't follow Jesus Christ" then the answer is no, differences in practices of faith do not mean "we follow the same Jesus Christ."

On the other hand, if the person doing the assessing does not recognize differences in "practices of faith" as distinguishing, then the answer is yes, differences in practices of faith mean we do "follow the same Jesus Christ."

This understanding holds equally true not just as to "practices of faith" but as to what individual "Christians" or the official doctrines or dogmas of particular "Christian" sects interpret as the meaning of "faith" itself. If differences in dogma or "states of belief" matter then there is more than one "Jesus Christ." If they don't matter, then there can be a shared vision of "Jesus Christ" that transcends the dogmas, creeds or other particular professions of faith.

[IIChr7:14]

Originally Posted by sojourner

This smacks of proof-texting, which is probably why USS applauds it.
I disagree that Paul is talking about an ordinal of time. Paul is talking about an ordinal of place. See Matt. 20:16. Especially since he's juxtaposing the teaching of the apostles against the teaching of scripture. the apostles come last -- the scriptures come first.

I find no rebuttal, you just said what you just wanted to say "proof-texting and then refer me to matthew 20:16. And i dont see any relationship between matthew 20:16 about the apostles being the last.

Paul is talking about ordinal of time when he said they are appointed to death, it cannot mean an ordinal of place, when he said that to the corinthians. Your just confusing yourself.

[IIChr7:14]

Originally Posted by sojourner

This does not disprove an ordinal of place...

this does not disprove an ordinal of time either...

[IIChr7:14]

Originally Posted by sojourner

There's part of your problem. King James English is not the best translation.

It may not be the best but that doens't prove you are right. And please dont sound like your more correct than King James.

I don't see any Sojourner's version of the bible.

Originally Posted by sojourner

Nope. We all die, yet the Church goes on...

We all die including the apostles so that's why they are the last to be sent, and I dont see anyone saying the Church will not go on. But the apostleship will continue on Christ.

Originally Posted by sojourner

you don't have the least idea what Paul "should have used," because you're not interested in exegesis.

Well Mr. Sojourner I am able to say that also, its simple

"You dont have the least idea of what Paul "should have used", because your so interested on your own interpretation. "

Originally Posted by sojourner

Backing something up with scripture is clearly proof-texting. Proof-texting does not produce valid argument. If you don't want to debate, just say so, admit defeat, and move on with your life.

And what is a valid argument, yours?
"Backing something up with scripture is clearly proof-texting" Im am very sorry Mr. but you are puffed up with your scholarship.

God say's in the book of Isaiah,
Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

Oh wait I am proof-texting again... Oh my whatever..

Originally Posted by sojourner

There is very little clear evidence that the apostles wrote the gospels. Nor is there evidence that the letters to which you refer are the canonical letters. You're peeing into the wind here.

1 John 1:3-4
"We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. We write this to make our joy complete.

What?! "We write these" then there goes your scholarship saying, "There is very litte clear evidence that the apostles wrote the gospels" I Assume you know what you are tallking about, especially a scholarship is not free if i am correct.
What are those "very little clear evidence"?
Give me those clear evidence according to you.

Or is it just according to sojourner's epistle?

Originally Posted by sojourner

Grace has very little to do with interpretation...

Romans 12:6-7
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;

How can you therefore teach if you dont have the gift of grace?
How can you prophesy if you dont have the gift of grace?

According to your scholarship grace has very little to do with interpretation. And what something big has to do with interpration, your scholarship?

Poor first century christians, there grace is not enough and has little to do with there understanding. If only they have existed today they would just work hard and get a decent salary and pay to get scholarship and then finally understand the bible. Just like what Sojourner did.

1Peter 5:5
Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea,
all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility:
for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Now I understand why according to you that grace has little to do with interpretation.

Proud of your biblical scholarship eh?

Originally Posted by sojourner

I think it's an insult to God's Word to not employ the best scholarship to which we have access, in order to come to a clearer understanding. It's also an insult to the intellect God gave us to shove it in a closet every time we approach scripture.

Originally Posted by sojourner

and this after my having taken at least 8 college and graduate courses in the Bible...holding a perfect gradepoint average.

Hey, who would have doubt if in the near future that there will be an epistle of Sojourner, or a Wise Soujourner's version(WSV) of the bible. Just a thought.

Pharisees and Saducees are scholar's of the scriptures. But did they come to the knowledge of truth?

Was Peter a scholar?
Did he study to understand the words of God?
Is he educated in the bible like the Pharisees and Saducees?

2Tim 3:7
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

No matter how many colleges and scholarship you have, If God wont make known his words to you, then your just wise in your own conceits.

in the book of Luke,
In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

The wise and the prudent of the world, God has hidden these things.

With at least 8 colleges and graduate of biblical courses.. holding a perfect gradepoint average... In world standard you are considered to be wise, no doubt.

But considering these verse "that thou had hid these things from the wise and prudent"

I would have rather have the gift of grace of God and to be called uneducated of this world ,than a biblical scholar like you who say's grace has little to do with interpretation.

Originally Posted by sojourner

This has nothing to do with biblical scholarship

1Cor 1:25-27
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

Yes it has something to do with it.

Biblical scholars are considered to be wise in world standards right?

But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound biblical scholars like Sojourner Who belittles God's grace when it comes to understanding interpretation of the scriptures.

Dont get me wrong I'm in no way undermining the biblical scholars in the past and in the present, i leave that to God who judges there motives.

Just Sojourner because of what he said about grace has little to do with interpretation. Sounding like he's education is more important than grace.


I Thank God Sojourner's god, is not my God.

[IIChr7:14]

In Chapter 4 Paul was teaching humility to his brethren because some were puffed up or arrogant 1Cor 4:18 as though they have not receive 1Cor 4:7. They even go beyond what was written 1 Cor 4:6 because there are some in the brethren who were high minded.
He gave himself(Paul) as an example of being an apostle but did not seek glory of his own but as a servant of Christ 1Cor 4:1 with all humility, to teach some brethren who're boasting as though they did not receive it.

That's why he said in 1 Cor 4:14 "I do not write these things to make you ashamed" Even though Paul was an apostle of Christ he did not think highly of himself but with all humilty 1Cor 4:10-11 So he was teaching them to humble themselves not because he wanted them to be ashamed but because he love them so he corrected them.
So thats what he want also to see from his brethren not to think highly of themselves, but be imitators of him(Paul) 1Cor 4:16.
So he was not talking ordinal place of being an apostle last place among the Church. But rather ordinal in time because they were appointed to death.

And as the whole context of chapter 4 says he is one of the last apostles to be sent, an apostle who is a servant of Christ who does not seek his own glory but the glory of God, unlike some brethren in Corinthians.

Originally Posted by sojourner

Your eisegesis is showing.

I can do that again,

Your perfect gradepoint average is showing why you have become so wise on your own.

It's free of proof-texting see.

[IIChr7:14]

Gospel means good news Mr. Sojourner ... i didn't know you didn't

Of course I knew. In the time of the letter to the Corinthians, that good news was largely spoken, not written.

2Cor 1:13 For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end;

Yeah yeah proof-texting is very poor scholarship.. because IT DOESN'T WORK.

**Sigh**