Christians: Where do you draw the line? (Jesus, Creator, Moses)

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Mason

Well if the trinitarian theology says that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are made out of the same kind of thing then I think that this view is ambiguous and not Biblical. They, God, are three different persons and they have different roles. However, it's their love and purpose that make them one. In a marriage there are two people, but God in his own way makes them one.

The bible is full of ambiguities, conundrums, and paradoxes. So why worry that a concept in it is ambiguous? (Not that I think the trinity is ambiguous. Quite the contrary, I think it's perfectly univocal.) The bible says that there is only one God, yet the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all described as divine in exactly the same sense. If that doesn't mean that they're the "same kind of thing", I don't know what does. (It actually says something more, that they are one and same thing -- how's that for weird?) And if it's not biblical, then nothing is.

And again, the oneness you speak about in marriage is not the same oneness that Jesus enjoys with the Father and the Spirit. The oneness of a married couple does not imply that they are the same being. Scripture affirms that the three distinct persons of the trinity are together one and the same being.

[uss_bigd]

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

Scripture affirms that the three distinct persons of the trinity are together one and the same being.

so you say ...

Please read this with understanding

HEBREWS 5:5-10

That is how it was with Christ. He became a high priest, but not just because he wanted the honor of being one. It was God who told him,

"You are my Son, because today
I have become your Father!"
6In another place, God says,
"You are a priest forever just like Melchizedek." [a] God had the power to save Jesus from death. And while Jesus was on earth, he begged God with loud crying and tears to save him. He truly worshiped God, and God listened to his prayers. Jesus is God's own Son, but still he had to suffer before he could learn what it really means to obey God. Suffering made Jesus perfect, and now he can save forever all who obey him. This is because God chose him to be a high priest like Melchizedek.


NOW, WHAT IS THIS? A MONOLGUE?

STOP MISLEADING PEOPLE!!!!!!

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

If you don't believe the Trinity, you do not believe "everything the bible has to say about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."

I'm speaking of the Trinity as described/defined by the 4th and 5th century Creeds. The first century Christians didn't believe in the fifth century creeds any more than I do.

Indeed, you are resisting the witness of scripture to the Son.

How so? I believe everything the Bible has to say about the Son.

For the bible does not affirm the physicality of the Father or the Holy Ghost. According to the bible, there is one and only one divine being, who is a spirit and exists eternally as three distinct persons. One and only one of those persons has experienced physicality. To deny this is to separate yourself theologically from the community inaugurated by Jesus.

I totally disagree, but I'll tell you what. I would like very much to engage in a One-on-one debate with you on the subject of the nature of the Godhead/Trinity. I fully expect that such a debate would not change either of our minds, but I have a feeling you are the kind of a person who can debate without getting personal. You've impressed me as relatively open-minded and respectful of religious differences. So what say you?

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Mason

Well if the trinitarian theology says that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are made out of the same kind of thing then I think that this view is ambiguous and not Biblical. They, God, are three different persons and they have different roles. However, it's their love and purpose that make them one. In a marriage there are two people, but God in his own way makes them one.

Oh, my gosh! That sounds downright... (dare I say it?) Mormon! Do you realize how perfectly you just described LDS doctrine?

[Jeremy Mason]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Oh, my gosh! That sounds downright... (dare I say it?) Mormon! Do you realize how perfectly you just described LDS doctrine?

Well, Cat'spur, if that's what LDS's believe them I'm eye to eye with you. It just goes to show that the different forms of Christianity do share many common aspects.

Uss-bigD, on the note that Jesus had to suffer to become perfect, well, for what I understand, Jesus died on the cross to make us perfect through his atoning blood.
Remember, he always was and is perfect. He was God before he was even born, and in order for Jesus to be God, he always had to be perfect. Maybe I misunderstood you, if I did, I'm sorry.

Dunemeister, I think we are going in circles a little bit. What do you think?

[uss_bigd]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Mason

Well, Cat'spur, if that's what LDS's believe them I'm eye to eye with you. It just goes to show that the different forms of Christianity do share many common aspects.

Uss-bigD, on the note that Jesus had to suffer to become perfect, well, for what I understand, Jesus died on the cross to make us perfect through his atoning blood.
Remember, he always was and is perfect. He was God before he was even born, and in order for Jesus to be God, he always had to be perfect. Maybe I misunderstood you, if I did, I'm sorry.

Dunemeister, I think we are going in circles a little bit. What do you think?

thats ok, my only point was that particular part of Hebrews 5 explicitly portrays Jesus and the God the Father as seperate beings ....

the abosolute one doctrine is misleading ...

[Jeremy Mason]

Originally Posted by uss_bigd

thats ok, my only point was that particular part of Hebrews 5 explicitly portrays Jesus and the God the Father as seperate beings ....

the abosolute one doctrine is misleading ...

Jesus and the Father are two different persons. That's why we are baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Jesus would just have said be baptized in the name of the Father or God if in fact God was just one person. So we are good my friend.

[uss_bigd]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Mason

Jesus and the Father are two different persons. That's why we are baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Jesus would just have said be baptized in the name of the Father or God if in fact God was just one person. So we are good my friend.

Good indeed...

[Ratiocinative]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

And with respect to items # 1 and #3, I imagine that the following would also apply:

1. You must believe that Jesus Christ (who is God) was His own Father and that His Father (who is God) was His own Son, and that God is both corporeal and non-corporeal at the same time and that Jesus prayed to Himself and that the Father answered His own prayers.

The Bible is very clear that the Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and that there is only one God. I admit that it is somewhat hard to understand, but it would be bold for anyone to claim that anything they can't understand is automatically false. What about God(or the universe so atheists don't feel left out)? How did he or it come into existence in the first place? Everything that we understand in our physical universe has a cause, so what caused the first thing to "come into" existence, whether you believe it to God or the physical universe? Even though we have no idea how, the only conclusion to come to is that God had no cause, he has al