Christians: Where do you draw the line? (Jesus, Creator, Moses) - Page 6

Dunemeister · #51 03-13-2008, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katzpur

<snip>But it would be interesting to hear his response to these two questions:

1. Am I a Christian if I do not believe in the Trinity, as long as I believe everything the Bible has to say about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost?

2. Am I a Christian if I believe that my faithfulness to Jesus Christ is the only true measure of my degree of faith in Jesus Christ, and that if I consistently fail to repent of my sins, my faith will get me no where?

I haven't read further than this yet, so I don't know if Ratiocinative has answered. However, here are MY answers, for what they are worth:

1. Hard to say. If you don't believe the Trinity, you do not believe "everything the bible has to say about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost." Indeed, you are resisting the witness of scripture to the Son. For the bible does not affirm the physicality of the Father or the Holy Ghost. According to the bible, there is one and only one divine being, who is a spirit and exists eternally as three distinct persons. One and only one of those persons has experienced physicality. To deny this is to separate yourself theologically from the community inaugurated by Jesus.

But are you in good standing with God? Well, that's another question. I'd say that it's not my place to judge. It is God's place. God will judge you based on the totality of your life lived. Christians and non-Christians (however those categories are understood) will all be judged on the same basis. God does not play favorites.

It's also possible, I think, for persons to be deceived in matters of spirituality and religion. It's also possible to in all good faith not be able to buy into "correct" theology. (I'm assuming for the moment that the Trinitarian doctrine is correct and considering a person who doesn't buy into it even after sympathetically trying to learn and understand it.) I'm not convinced that either of those types of people are automatically damned.

2. Your status as a Christian doesn't depend on your theology of salvation. It depends entirely on having saving faith in Jesus, i.e., faith that produces deeds worthy of repentance. There are plenty of Christians who unfortunately labor under the impression that they are not because they have a skewed theology that tells them that unless they are perfect, God cannot receive them. And vice versa. Some people call themselves Christians, but they don't have the right to because they live in a way completely contrary to the will of God and have no compunction about it whatsoever.

I fully agree with the theology implied by your statement, though. Faithfulness to Jesus is the only measure of one's faith. Your feelings can be deceptive. No burning in the bosom or ecstatic experience (speaking in tongues or whatever) can provide a foundation for one's confidence. Rather, you must be able to look at your life and see a track record of improvement, sensitivity to moral upbraiding, and a growing pattern of repentance and forgiveness.

Dunemeister · #52 03-13-2008, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IIChr7:14

Before anything else, based on your belief when did Jesus started to exist?

Jesus started to exist in the womb of the Virgin Mary. The Word of God (who became incarnate in the Virgin) has coexisted with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit from all eternity.

Dunemeister · #53 03-13-2008, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IIChr7:14

What exactly do you mean by "the Father and the Son are also in one essence or substance",and why quote Matthew 28:19 to argue with that?

Typo. They are "one in essence" not "in one essence".

In my comments on Matthew 28:19, I was trying to argue for this position, not against it.

Does that clear up the confusion, or should I say more about that?

Starfish · #54 03-13-2008, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

I haven't read further than this yet, so I don't know if Ratiocinative has answered. However, here are MY answers, for what they are worth:

1. Hard to say. If you don't believe the Trinity, you do not believe "everything the bible has to say about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost." Indeed, you are resisting the witness of scripture to the Son. For the bible does not affirm the physicality of the Father or the Holy Ghost. According to the bible, there is one and only one divine being, who is a spirit and exists eternally as three distinct persons. One and only one of those persons has experienced physicality. To deny this is to separate yourself theologically from the community inaugurated by Jesus.

But are you in good standing with God? Well, that's another question. I'd say that it's not my place to judge. It is God's place. God will judge you based on the totality of your life lived. Christians and non-Christians (however those categories are understood) will all be judged on the same basis. God does not play favorites.

It's also possible, I think, for persons to be deceived in matters of spirituality and religion. It's also possible to in all good faith not be able to buy into "correct" theology. (I'm assuming for the moment that the Trinitarian doctrine is correct and considering a person who doesn't buy into it even after sympathetically trying to learn and understand it.) I'm not convinced that either of those types of people are automatically damned.

2. Your status as a Christian doesn't depend on your theology of salvation. It depends entirely on having saving faith in Jesus, i.e., faith that produces deeds worthy of repentance. There are plenty of Christians who unfortunately labor under the impression that they are not because they have a skewed theology that tells them that unless they are perfect, God cannot receive them. And vice versa. Some people call themselves Christians, but they don't have the right to because they live in a way completely contrary to the will of God and have no compunction about it whatsoever.

I fully agree with the theology implied by your statement, though. Faithfulness to Jesus is the only measure of one's faith. Your feelings can be deceptive. No burning in the bosom or ecstatic experience (speaking in tongues or whatever) can provide a foundation for one's confidence. Rather, you must be able to look at your life and see a track record of improvement, sensitivity to moral upbraiding, and a growing pattern of repentance and forgiveness.

You come across as a very reasonable person, and I can't tell you how refreshing that is.
A couple of questions: I, like Katzpur, don't believe in the trinity, and my interpretation of the Bible completely supports this. So who's got the correct interpretation? We're all looking at the same scriptures.
Also, I don't understand your statement, "faith that produces deeds worthy of repentence." Deeds worthy of repentence would be sin, wouldn't they? So how does faith produce them? Maybe I just misunderstood.
Thanks.

Jeremy Mason · #55 03-13-2008, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

Jesus started to exist in the womb of the Virgin Mary. The Word of God (who became incarnate in the Virgin) has coexisted with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit from all eternity.

This may shed some light:
(John 8:57) "You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
(John 8:58) "I tell you the true," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am"
Jesus is saying that existed before Abraham.

How does Jesus starting to exist in the womb related to this Scripture?

Captain Civic · #56 03-13-2008, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

1. Hard to say. If you don't believe the Trinity, you do not believe "everything the bible has to say about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost." Indeed, you are resisting the witness of scripture to the Son.

I disagree with that. I personally believe in the Trinity, but I don't believe it's necessary to my salvation. You can believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He is our path to Heaven without believing that He, the Father and the Spirit are one.

Jeremy Mason · #57 03-13-2008, 08:41 PM

Look at it this way, there are three part to one egg. The yolk, the white, and the shell. But we call it one egg. A football team is comprised of many players but we call it "one team".

Dunemeister · #58 03-13-2008, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy Mason

Look at it this way, there are three part to one egg. The yolk, the white, and the shell. But we call it one egg. A football team is comprised of many players but we call it "one team".

These physical analogies simply don't work. Let's take the egg as an example. For the egg yolk is a different kind of thing than an egg white, which is a different kind of thing from an egg shell. But trinitarian theology affirms that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are the same kind of thing.

This complication is one of the reasons why biblical writers such as Matthew had to re-invent Greek grammar and theologians such as Athanasius had to invent new philosophical categories to talk about it. The church has tried to use physical analogies for two thousand years, and for that entire time, critics have demonstrated (correctly) that they are not sufficient.

Sigh. What are we to do? Rest on the biblical witness to the existence of one and only one God that exists as three distinct persons. How does that all work? Frankly, dunno.