Christians: Where do you draw the line? (Jesus, Creator, Moses)

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

Remember, we're talking about where the minimal requirements are to be considered a Christian. It may sound pious to "raise the bar" but I fear that some of us raise the bar higher than God does.

Frubals! How often people seem to think that God is looking for reasons to condemn His children to an eternity of agony. Jesus Christ said that men would recognize His disciples because of their love for one another. Oddly, that didn't even come up in ratioinactive's list.

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

And with respect to items # 1 and #3, I imagine that the following would also apply:

1. You must believe that Jesus Christ (who is God) was His own Father and that His Father (who is God) was His own Son, and that God is both corporeal and non-corporeal at the same time and that Jesus prayed to Himself and that the Father answered His own prayers.

This obvious caricature of the doctrine of the Trinity does not help the debate. (Not to mention the uncharitableness of your expression.) It's fine if you don't believe the Trinity, but before you mock it, at least understand it. To say that the doctrine implies that Jesus prayed to Himself or that Jesus and God the Father are the same person means that you really haven't even tried to understand it. If you're going to engage in debate about a topic, at least do your opponent the honor of sympathetically attempting to understand it.

Originally Posted by Katzpur

3. You must believe Jesus didn't really mean what He said when that it is those who keep His commandments who will abide in His love, or that He is the author of salvation of those who obey Him, or that it is those who do the will of His Father who will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

How in the world does 3 imply this? The Christian view is that faith in Jesus saves a person. But one's faith is proven by his deeds. So if one has faith but no deeds, we have every right to doubt whether the faith is genuine. Thus, genuine faith produces deeds "worthy of repentance." As a result, if one sees a person doing deeds "worthy of repentance", that is "the will of His Father", one can be more or less confident in that person's profession of faith. Yet it is the faith, not the deeds, that save. So if traditional Christians are wrong about this, it's not because we've misunderstood Jesus' sayings. Perhaps Jesus was mistaken?

Originally Posted by Katzpur

And to top it all off, you must apparently believe that when Jesus said, "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again," He wasn't talking to you. After all, if you've passed the five "absolute, core, fundamental requirements for being a Christian," He'll overlook something as trivial as you thinking you have a right to play God.

I think you are accusing Ratiocinative of too much. Certainly he's not playing God. But I think it's fair to say that no one should assume that they've entered the Kingdom of Heaven simply because they've got their theology straight (according to whatever tradition). However, I see no reason to condemn someone for having reasonable confidence that they have a right standing with God. For the apostle John himself wrote so that Christians "might know that you have eternal life." So it must be possible to have reasonable assurance that one has a right standing with God.

[uss_bigd]

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

This obvious caricature of the doctrine of the Trinity does not help the debate. (Not to mention the uncharitableness of your expression.) It's fine if you don't believe the Trinity, but before you mock it, at least understand it. To say that the doctrine implies that Jesus prayed to Himself or that Jesus and God the Father are the same person means that you really haven't even tried to understand it. If you're going to engage in debate about a topic, at least do your opponent the honor of sympathetically attempting to understand it.



How in the world does 3 imply this? The Christian view is that faith in Jesus saves a person. But one's faith is proven by his deeds. So if one has faith but no deeds, we have every right to doubt whether the faith is genuine. Thus, genuine faith produces deeds "worthy of repentance." As a result, if one sees a person doing deeds "worthy of repentance", that is "the will of His Father", one can be more or less confident in that person's profession of faith. Yet it is the faith, not the deeds, that save. So if traditional Christians are wrong about this, it's not because we've misunderstood Jesus' sayings. Perhaps Jesus was mistaken?



I think you are accusing Ratiocinative of too much. Certainly he's not playing God. But I think it's fair to say that no one should assume that they've entered the Kingdom of Heaven simply because they've got their theology straight (according to whatever tradition). However, I see no reason to condemn someone for having reasonable confidence that they have a right standing with God. For the apostle John himself wrote so that Christians "might know that you have eternal life." So it must be possible to have reasonable assurance that one has a right standing with God.

so, "God said in genesis let US create man" who was he talking to?
and, the verse that said " everything was created through him" why didnt he say through me if they are one?

so coffee with cream means coffee is the same as cream??

[Katzpur]

Wow! And all this after I gave you frubals!

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

This obvious caricature of the doctrine of the Trinity does not help the debate. (Not to mention the uncharitableness of your expression.) It's fine if you don't believe the Trinity, but before you mock it, at least understand it. To say that the doctrine implies that Jesus prayed to Himself or that Jesus and God the Father are the same person means that you really haven't even tried to understand it. If you're going to engage in debate about a topic, at least do your opponent the honor of sympathetically attempting to understand it.

I can see why you saw my post as a caricature. Having been told all my life by people like ratioinactive that I am not a Christian because I don't accept the doctrine of the Trinity, I knew exactly what he was getting at when he said, "You must believe that there is only one God." I do believe there is only one God, a Godhead comprised of three physically distinct personages who are absolutely and perfect united in will, purpose, mind and heart. For people like ratioinactive, though, it's not enough that I believe in the divinity of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. I must also understand their relationship in exactly the same way he does. Believe me, I've made every effort to understand the Trinity. This isn't exactly the first time I've had this discussion. When people are willing to be respectful of my beliefs, I am willing to extend the same courtesy to them. I'm sure that when you get to know me better, you'll find that to be true. Ratioinactive hasn't exactly been respectful to me in the past, which is why I responded as I did.

How in the world does 3 imply this? The Christian view is that faith in Jesus saves a person. But one's faith is proven by his deeds. So if one has faith but no deeds, we have every right to doubt whether the faith is genuine. Thus, genuine faith produces deeds "worthy of repentance." As a result, if one sees a person doing deeds "worthy of repentance", that is "the will of His Father", one can be more or less confident in that person's profession of faith. Yet it is the faith, not the deeds, that save. So if traditional Christians are wrong about this, it's not because we've misunderstood Jesus' sayings. Perhaps Jesus was mistaken?

Ratioinactive said, "You must believe that faith in Christ alone is how we obtain said forgiveness, and not through our own actions." Your interpretation of the role works plays in the process of salvation is really not all that different from mine. I believe that we are, in fact, saved by grace, apart from anything we can do. Ratioinactive, on the other hand, has implied that our actions (by which I assume he meant repentence and a sincere resolve to do better in the future) don't make any difference to the Lord, and that if we have faith in Him, that's all that matters. I believe Jesus Christ made it clear that we must keep His commandments, be obedient and do the will of our Father in Heaven. We know that we as human beings are incapable of doing that 100% of the time, but the Lord does expect the best of us that we have to give. Once again, I have been told on far too many occasions that, because I believe that Christ's gift of grace is offered to those who do more than merely pay lip service to him, I am guilty of believing that I can earn my way into Heaven. I was responding to ratioinactive based on what I know he thinks about my beliefs and how he has debated his point of view in the past.

But I think it's fair to say that no one should assume that they've entered the Kingdom of Heaven simply because they've got their theology straight (according to whatever tradition). However, I see no reason to condemn someone for having reasonable confidence that they have a right standing with God. For the apostle John himself wrote so that Christians "might know that you have eternal life." So it must be possible to have reasonable assurance that one has a right standing with God.

I agree wholeheartedly. I have no problem whatsoever with ratioinactive believing that he has a right standing with God. What I object to is his implication that I don't. If I've been too hard on him, I'm sorry. But it would be interesting to hear his response to these two questions:

1. Am I a Christian if I do not believe in the Trinity, as long as I believe everything the Bible has to say about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost?

2. Am I a Christian if I believe that my faithfulness to Jesus Christ is the only true measure of my degree of faith in Jesus Christ, and that if I consistently fail to repent of my sins, my faith will get me no where?

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by uss_bigd

so, "God said in genesis let US create man" who was he talking to? and, the verse that said " everything was created through him" why didnt he say through me if they are one?

You're not a Trinitarian?

[uss_bigd]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

You're not a Trinitarian?

according to the bible, God the father, Jesus, and the holy spirit are three different entities. as portrayed in Jesus' baptism in the Jordan river.and as would basic logic suggest.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by uss_bigd

according to the bible, God the father, Jesus, and the holy spirit are three different entities. as portrayed in Jesus' baptism in the Jordan river.and as would basic logic suggest.

Well, what do you know. It appears that your church and mine both agree on this point.

[Captain Civic]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Well, what do you know. It appears that your church and mine both agree on this point.

That's what bugs me about the church. Because you're non-trinitarian (among other things), people say you're not a real Christian. But you believe in the deity and authority of Christ. That's all that should matter, right?

[uss_bigd]

Originally Posted by Captain Civic

That's what bugs me about the church. Because you're non-trinitarian (among other things), people say you're not a real Christian. But you believe in the deity and authority of Christ. That's all that should matter, right?