Christians: Where do you draw the line? (Jesus, Creator, Moses)

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by Scuba Pete

Now we are discussing the difference between "traditions" and "God's Law". Traditions of men are FINE as long as they are treated as TRADITIONS of men (non-binding). Unfortunately, they almost always grow in stature and importance and seem to ultimately REPLACE God's Laws for many denominations.

To that end, we see people waste time on justifying these traditions as being essential for the community as you are now doing. Our focus should be LOVE... not rules. I am going to keep that!

Certain traditions are essential. Communion and baptism and confession and forgiveness and all that are not optional. These things train us to love. I agree that love is the focus, the goal, the purpose of our lives. But we need training to do that. The spiritual disciplines (call them "rules" if you like) cultivate love. If you ignore them, you may talk love, but you are not training yourself in it.

So they can't possibly replace love. But they are essential and therefore not negotiable.

[Arrow]

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

Certain traditions are essential. Communion and baptism and confession and forgiveness and all that are not optional. These things train us to love. I agree that love is the focus, the goal, the purpose of our lives.

If we are not free to do what we want, then why did Christ die? I think Paul stresses it so much because he knows what people are going to do when you tell them the law no longer applies. However, the catch is that true faith evokes the actions. Faith in part means "to be set on something." It is hard to serve two masters and love both. Faith in God will automatically lead someone to imitate the actions of Jesus and seek after Him further. Lately, it just seems to me that God cares less and less about His people following the law and more and more about following Him. Though closely related, there is world of difference.

In short, a Christian life will take part in traditions because he/she wants to imitate the life of Christ, but this would not mean that they are required.

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

But we need training to do that. The spiritual disciplines (call them "rules" if you like) cultivate love. If you ignore them, you may talk love, but you are not training yourself in it.

So they can't possibly replace love. But they are essential and therefore not negotiable.

We do need training, but rules do not train people to love. Laws are here to expose our sin and keep us living a beneficial life. As Paul says all things are lawful, but not all things are helpful. I feel that the law directs us to the more helpful life, but it is our faith in Christ that breeds and trains the love. How could anything else?

Do not get me wrong though. I absolutely love traditions. There is nothing more beautiful than communion and what it obviously stands for.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Arrow

If we are not free to do what we want, then why did Christ die?

Whoa! Hold everything! Are you saying that Christ died so that we would be free to do whatever we want?

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by Arrow

If we are not free to do what we want, then why did Christ die?

He died in order to fuse the Gentiles and the Jews into one righteous people. We are not free to sin. That way lies licence.

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by Arrow

In short, a Christian life will take part in traditions because he/she wants to imitate the life of Christ, but this would not mean that they are required.

Huh? Howzat?

We do need training, but rules do not train people to love. Laws are here to expose our sin and keep us living a beneficial life. As Paul says all things are lawful, but not all things are helpful. I feel that the law directs us to the more helpful life, but it is our faith in Christ that breeds and trains the love. How could anything else?

Spiritual disciplines (prayer, study, good works, confession, repentance, communion, baptism....) train us to love. You can call these "rules" if you want because they are certainly not negotiable side issues. They are central and required. If you don't do them, you're not practicing a Christian life. It's really that simple.

[sojourner]

I think where we run into trouble is not the concern that we practice these disciplines, but how we practice them.

In order to be a disciple, there sort of have to be disciplines, don't there?

[Scuba Pete]

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

Certain traditions are essential.

Traditions are by definition NOT essential. They are only essential for those who wish to maintain power over the supplicants.

[ayani]

Originally Posted by Khale

To be a Christian I don't think you even need to believe in the divinity of Jesus. You simply need to follow his example of compassion and love.

but i do think that one has to hear His call, and decide to follow Him. He came to make disciples of all nations, and give God's peace and life to those who believe in Him, not simply to preach good ideals independent of His life and ministry. if one is to be a disciple, one must trust Him, believe in Him, learn about His life, and with God's help speak the good news about His death and resurrection and grace to others.

for me, that is the heart of being a Christian.