Christians: Where do you draw the line? (Jesus, Creator, Moses)

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by uss_bigd

the deutero canocical books was added by the catholics. it was not suppose to be there. i am referring to the original bible with the new and old testaments. the closer it is tranlated from the original greek bible the better.

Well, just to make it perfectly clear, I personally use the KJV. On the other hand, I'm not sure why you say the Apocrypha is "not supposed to be there." Who decided that, and based on what criteria?

[Ratiocinative]

Originally Posted by Captain Civic

What do you think a person needs to believe to be a Christian? Is there limits to certain interpretations of the Bible?

For whatever reason, people seem to downplay the level of commitment required to be a true Christian. Perhaps it is because the predominantly Christian societies are all democratic, so very few Christians have to risk anything to call themselves Christians. In some countries, though, people are not so care-free about calling themselves Christians. In those countries people have to be prepared for the fact that they might be killed if they pronounce faith in Christ. Christ said in Luke 9:62, anyone who puts a hand to the plow and then looks back is not fit for the Kingdom of God. Just because us Christians who live in democratic societies are rarely forced to choose between having faith in Christ, doesn't mean that we aren't still called to be willing to make that choice.

Anyway, to the topic. Faith in Christ is the only thing that is need, but questions arise, such as what is faith? Or, especially when talking to Mormons, who is Christ? So I tried to be as specific as possible so there wouldn't be any loopholes. Off the top of my head I can't think of any situation that someone who fits all 5 of these things could be unsaved, but perhaps there could be a loophole somewhere. But anyway, these are the five things that I would say are absolute, core, fundamental requirements for being a Christian:

1. You must believe that there is only one God.
2. You must believe that forgiveness of sins is only possible because Jesus, who is God incarnate, died on the cross.
3. You must believe that faith in Christ alone is how we obtain said forgiveness, and not through our own actions.
4. You must be willing to do what God says even if you don't understand the reason why at the time.
5. Your faith in Christ must be more valuable to you than your own life.

If you do not fit, #1,2, or 3, then you are not saved because you do not know who God is, and if you do not fit #4 or 5 then you do not have the required faith to be saved.

[uss_bigd]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Well, just to make it perfectly clear, I personally use the KJV. On the other hand, I'm not sure why you say the Apocrypha is "not supposed to be there." Who decided that, and based on what criteria?

Good Question sir,

1.We simply look a the original greek translations, it will show what the original books were.
2. Research WHEN the new books were added ... and everyting else will fall into place.

[MidnightBlue]

Originally Posted by uss_bigd

Good Question sir

Katzpur is a woman.

Originally Posted by uss_bigd

1.We simply look a the original greek translations, it will show what the original books were.

If you're looking at the original Greek (the Septuagint), you'll find the "Apocrypha."

Originally Posted by uss_bigd

2. Research WHEN the new books were added ... and everyting else will fall into place.

The Apocrypha/Deuterocanonicals have been in Christian Bibles as long as there have been Christian Bibles. The Catholics didn't "add" them at the Council of Trent; they merely affirmed their canonicity in reaction to (some) Protestants' having taken them out.

[uss_bigd]

Originally Posted by MidnightBlue

Katzpur is a woman.

If you're looking at the original Greek (the Septuagint), you'll find the "Apocrypha."

The Apocrypha/Deuterocanonicals have been in Christian Bibles as long as there have been Christian Bibles. The Catholics didn't "add" them at the Council of Trent; they merely affirmed their canonicity in reaction to (some) Protestants' having taken them out.

ic, my apologies to Katzpur.

Mr/Ms MidightBlue

I strongly recommend that you check the information that you have. it will be much better and enlightning than me providing them to you. what if i am telling you the truth? you will not lose anything by investigating further.

Thank you for your inputs!

to God be the glory!!!

[Captain Civic]

OK, most Christians from different denominations seem to be pretty aligned in agreement about that.

What if, though, I were to toss out Hitler? From what I've learned of him, he believed in Jesus and that He was the forgiver of sins, etc. but he committed unspeakable atrocities to the Jewish nation. Does that make him Christian?

[Starfish]

Originally Posted by Captain Civic

OK, most Christians from different denominations seem to be pretty aligned in agreement about that.

What if, though, I were to toss out Hitler? From what I've learned of him, he believed in Jesus and that He was the forgiver of sins, etc. but he committed unspeakable atrocities to the Jewish nation. Does that make him Christian?

Hitler put on a facade of Christian morality to win over the people. Christianity is more than what you profess. Your actions count.

[Dunemeister]

That's part of the point I was making. Hitler may have had right theological beliefs, but his behavior ran contrary to Jesus' intentions. In other words, he didn't confess Jesus as Lord. To confess with your mouth but not move the body in accord with your confession makes your confession false. You're a hypocrite. (What point would there be of saying you must confess something but also hold that your life could deny it?) So I'd have no trouble saying that Hitler -- his protestations to the contrary notwithstanding -- was not a Christian.

In response to Ratiocinative's list:

1. You must believe that there is only one God.
2. You must believe that forgiveness of sins is only possible because Jesus, who is God incarnate, died on the cross.
3. You must believe that faith in Christ alone is how we obtain said forgiveness, and not through our own actions.
4. You must be willing to do what God says even if you don't understand the reason why at the time.
5. Your faith in Christ must be more valuable to you than your own life.

I disagree with all of this except for 4 (and even there, I cavil). As for 1, many believers begin their walk with Jesus thinking he's one of many gods, perhaps the greatest of them. I'm here thinking of Hindu converts who take some time for Christian monotheism to fall into place. I think that their confession of faith of Jesus as Lord is sufficient, and the Apostle Paul backs me up here.

As for 2 and 3, these involve an awful lot of theological reflection, and the cases of conversion in the New Testament don't include it. For the most part, they believe that Jesus is Lord or the son of God, or whatever, put their faith in him (because of the resurrection) and that's it. Done. Saved. Free. Very little theology, certainly no soteriology. And certainly no soteriology that says that Jesus is the only way to be saved. By and large, they only believe that God provided him as a way. Of course, they were unaware of any other way, so perhaps they thought there wasn't any other way. But of course, we don't know that because we're only told what we're told, which isn't much.

As for 4, there can be good faith disagreements about what is canonical, how to understand Jesus' life and intentions for his people, and so forth. So at times "what God says" is not clear. Thus we must be intimately part of a Christian community that is connected with the traditions of the church and fully engages their reasoning faculties. God is not after robots. He's after loving communities.

As for 5, how can anyone be responsible for making their faith this vigorous? How can anyone know how they will act at the crucial time until it comes? Right now, many Christians in more comfortable circumstances might not be able to say with confidence that they wouldn't deny Jesus in the face of torture. One hopes that God will give them the strength at the time. But honestly, to make this a minimal requirement for being a Christian would be asinine. Couldn't a truly faithful and fully qualified Christian start with just a little bit of faith, experience some persecution, backslide, and then be restored? If so, why not a Christian whose faith temporarily does not survive a torture session?

Remember, we're talking about where the minimal requirements are to be considered a Christian. It may sound pious to "raise the bar" but I fear that some of us raise the bar higher than God does.

[rheff78]

Originally Posted by Captain Civic

OK, most Christians from different denominations seem to be pretty aligned in agreement about that.

What if, though, I were to toss out Hitler? From what I've learned of him, he believed in Jesus and that He was the forgiver of sins, etc. but he committed unspeakable atrocities to the Jewish nation. Does that make him Christian?

Just like with any relligions, they have their bad eggs. Christians have them, Judasim, Islam. The whole of the part can't be judged by individual pieces.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Ratiocinative

Anyway, to the topic. Faith in Christ is the only thing that is need, but questions arise, such as what is faith? Or, especially when talking to Mormons, who is Christ? So I tried to be as specific as possible so there wouldn't be any loopholes. Off the to