Christians: Where do you draw the line? (Jesus, Creator, Moses)

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by Green Kepi

I haven't read all of the comments; however, has anyone addressed the original question in enough detail? "Where do you draw the Line"? Should we not be concerned as to where Jesus draws the Line? Belief is not enough. The Scriptures teach this throughout. To think I'm okay in the sight of God by just my saying I believe (I'm a Christian) and then doing not much of anything else would be like me saying I'm a Republican and never voting...what good is that?

Jesus put it this way: "Repent, therefore, and believe the gospel."

"Repent" means to change direction. In the original context, he was calling his fellow Jews to repent of their violent nationalistic aspirations in their resistance to Rome and their idolistic use of the Temple as some kind of holy talisman to guarantee their success in their aspirations. In other words, he was telling them, this is no way to be Israel, God's new humanity.

"Believe" means "adopt and imitate my way of being Israel." There's a passage in Josephus where Josephus is counselling a young man named Jesus (not the same as the one in the gospels -- there wasn't a lot of creativity with boys' names in the first century among the Jewish people, apparently). He told that young Jesus -- a member of the Zealot party that wanted to violently overthrow Rome -- to repent and follow him (Josephus). Obviously, he couldn't have meant "trust me as your savior." Rather, he meant "give up your current aspirations and adopt my political strategy." Jesus Christ, at about the same time and using precisely the same words, must have meant the same thing.

"Gospel", again in the first century, was used by Roman emperors. The first century game was for a guy to get adopted by an emperor, survive plots and shenanigans, access to the Throne, divinize your adoptive father, and then you are a son of a god. When you take the throne and get so demi-divinized, you send heralds throughout the realm to announce the gospel, the good news that a new emperor has been installed, and that now, finally, there would be peace, justice, and prosperity. Sound familiar? Well, it should because that's what Jesus meant, too. Jesus was announcing that God was at last becoming King in and through Jesus. That's what made his crucifixion as an insurrectionist plausible.

Therefore, Jesus was calling on his people to turn from their violent aspirations against Rome and their idolatrous fascination with the Temple as some kind of talisman and to believe that in him, God was becoming King (with all the political implications of that withstanding). Doing so would, of course, demand a complete renovation of Jewish national life as well as the lives of individual Jews.

Today, it means the same thing. Jesus is calling the whole world to repent and believe the gospel. Jesus is Lord, so Caesar isn't. Buddha isn't. Shiva isn't. Allah isn't. <Insert your favorite god here> isn't. And it's time for all the world to bend the knee.

This is no different (practically or theologically) from Paul, who said that to be saved, you must confess Jesus as Lord and believe that God has raised him from the dead. As I've explained earlier, those two statements support and reinforce each other as a whole package. So you can pick your slogan: Repent and believe or confess and believe. Either way, you get to the same place, obedience to Jesus (where obedience is the result, not the precondition, of salvation).

[ChristineES]

Too many people say they are Christians yet don't follow Jesus' commands. They are what I call "Sunday Christians"- They are Christians on Sunday and secular the rest of the week.

[Ratiocinative]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Please provide some quotes from the Apostles for us to discuss, Ratiocinative.

Here are some from the apostles, and Jesus as well.

Luke 7:47-50 (KJV) [47] Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. [48] And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. [49] And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? [50] And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

John 3:14-18 (KJV) [14] And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: [15] That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. [16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. [17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. [18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:35-36 (KJV) [35] The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. [36] He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 15:1-11 (KJV) [1] And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. [2] When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. [3] And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. [4] And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. [5] But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. [6] And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. [7] And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. [8] And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; [9] And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. [10] Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? [11] But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Acts 16:25-34 (KJV) [25] And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them. [26] And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed. [27] And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled. [28] But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here. [29] Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, [30] And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? [31] And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. [32] And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. [33] And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. [34] And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

Acts 26:14-19 (KJV) [14] And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. [15] And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. [16] But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; [17] Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, [18] To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. [19] Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

Romans 1:16-17 (KJV) [16] For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. [17] For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 10:9-13 (KJV) [9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. [10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. [11] For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Galatians 3:1-14 (KJV) [1] O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? [2] This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? [3] Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? [4] Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. [5] He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? [6] Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. [7] Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. [8] And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. [9] So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. [10] For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. [11] But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. [12] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. [13] Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: [14] That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

1 Peter 1:3-5 (KJV) [3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, [4] To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, [5] Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[uss_bigd]

Gal 5:19-21

"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."

This is Christ's teachings ... if you follow christ, you shouldn't do any actions in the above verse. drawing a line starts somewhere.

[Troublemane]

Originally Posted by uss_bigd

Gal 5:19-21

"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."

This is Christ's teachings ... if you follow christ, you shouldn't do any actions in the above verse. drawing a line starts somewhere.

These arent the words of Christ, the were the words of those who came later. Galatians does not quote Jesus. But still, the Kingdom of God is not the earth or heaven. Its a mystical teaching on how to be above the sorrow of mortality. So obviously, if you live like the above states (orgies, etc.), no you aren't going to be above sorrow, sorrow will be visited upon you. But thats not Gods wrath, all fire and brimstone--thats simple consequences for you own actions.

IMHO, If someone tries to follow the example of Christ just to get into heaven, thats certainly not following the example of Christ.

[uss_bigd]

Originally Posted by Troublemane

These arent the words of Christ, the were the words of those who came later. Galatians does not quote Jesus. But still, the Kingdom of God is not the earth or heaven. Its a mystical teaching on how to be above the sorrow of mortality. So obviously, if you live like the above states (orgies, etc.), no you aren't going to be above sorrow, sorrow will be visited upon you. But thats not Gods wrath, all fire and brimstone--thats simple consequences for you own actions.

IMHO, If someone tries to follow the example of Christ just to get into heaven, thats certainly not following the example of Christ.

it is not the words of christ, it is the teachings of christ taught through Paul.

Originally Posted by Troublemane

IMHO, If someone tries to follow the example of Christ just to get into heaven, thats certainly not following the example of Christ.

verses to support your CLAIM?

[sojourner]

Piety is not a viable substitute for living a life in Christ.

[Big_TJ]

Originally Posted by angellous_evangellous

A Christian to me is someone who at least believes in the Christian confessions - that Jesus as the incarnate Creator God (therefore the Trinity) died for our sins and resurrected on the third day and will come again in glory. Everything else is gravy.

Is this to say if you believe in all other teachings of Christ but do not believe in the Trinity then you are not a Christian?