Christians: Where do you draw the line? (Jesus, Creator, Moses)

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

Are you kidding me? The whole book of Revelation is about the suffering of Christians and how they ought to cope while God delays his vengeance. If suffering weren't supposed to be the lot of Christians, this whole book ought to be jettisoned from canon. But then again, so should those portions of James, Peter, Paul, and John which likewise indicate that we are to suffer. So good-bye to the Gospel of John (actually, all of them because they all indicate that believers will suffer).

God doesn't inflict the suffering, but he does in fact permit it. So it fits into God's will somehow. That's the mysterious and frustrating part of living as a human. But we can have assurance that God sympathizes with the sufferers because he himself became incarnate in Jesus and took the suffering of the world upon himself. He didn't shirk it. He didn't call down legions of angels to rescue himself. No, he suffered humiliation and torture and death at the hands of those whom he loved so much.

But allowing suffering and having suffering be "part of the plan" are two different things. The scriptures you indicate acknowledge suffering. But they do so with a more developed sense of theodicy than has been presented here.

I have children. I permit my children the freedom to drive a car. If they have an accident, I have allowed the accident to happen by allowing them to be in a place where they might become involved in such. But having the accident happen certainly is not part of my plan for them.

Jesus suffered because all human beings suffer. But to say that his suffering was "part of God's plan" is, IMO, cheap theology. The good that came out of it was that we have an example of perseverance to follow, as well as the hope that there is something better on the other side of suffering. But suffering as "part of the plan?" I don't think so!

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by sojourner

But allowing suffering and having suffering be "part of the plan" are two different things. The scriptures you indicate acknowledge suffering. But they do so with a more developed sense of theodicy than has been presented here.

I have children. I permit my children the freedom to drive a car. If they have an accident, I have allowed the accident to happen by allowing them to be in a place where they might become involved in such. But having the accident happen certainly is not part of my plan for them.

Jesus suffered because all human beings suffer. But to say that his suffering was "part of God's plan" is, IMO, cheap theology. The good that came out of it was that we have an example of perseverance to follow, as well as the hope that there is something better on the other side of suffering. But suffering as "part of the plan?" I don't think so!

Jesus himself said that he came "not to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many." Jesus knew what God's plan for him was, and it wasn't pretty. He agonized in Gethsemane, pleading with God to take away the "cup" -- the crucifixion and humiliation he was about to suffer -- if it was God's will to do so. Apparently, it wasn't. Hence, it was God's will that Jesus suffer.

If it was God's will for Jesus to suffer, and the servant is not greater than his master, how in the world can Christians think that suffering isn't part of God's plan for us?

The question isn't, does God plan for his people to suffer? The question rather is, to what end does God permit (or require) his people to suffer? If you ask that question, the bible is replete with answers. If you ask the former question, the bible presents you with nothing but puzzles.

[Ratiocinative]

Originally Posted by sojourner

2) What about those many of us who don't believe in the substitutionary atonement? Forgiveness, according the OT, is possible for Jews, without Jesus dying on the cross.
3) Sola fide is a Protestant concept, coined by Martin Luther. It has no basis in early Christian salvation theology. Does that mean that no Christian before Martin Luther was really a Christian?

Perhaps these are Protestant core beliefs, but they certainly are not applicable to the majority of Xy.

Substitutionary Atonement is the entire foundation of the message of the Bible. Jesus himself said that the very reason he came was to die in John 12, that his death would give others life. And regardless of what you call it, "Sola Fide" has always been taught because it is the only way in which the Bible teaches salvation. Hebrews 11 recounts how everyone was saved because of their faith, even those who were alive before Jesus came and those Jews who received the Old Covenant. The apostles were preaching salvation through faith alone right after they received the Holy Spirit a very short time after Jesus' death, so to say that this idea didn't come around until Martin Luther is baseless. These are core Biblical teachings, and they are applicable to anyone who is interested in doing what God wants.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Ratiocinative

The apostles were preaching salvation through faith alone right after they received the Holy Spirit a very short time after Jesus' death, so to say that this idea didn't come around until Martin Luther is baseless.

Please provide some quotes from the Apostles for us to discuss, Ratiocinative.

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

Jesus himself said that he came "not to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many." Jesus knew what God's plan for him was, and it wasn't pretty. He agonized in Gethsemane, pleading with God to take away the "cup" -- the crucifixion and humiliation he was about to suffer -- if it was God's will to do so. Apparently, it wasn't. Hence, it was God's will that Jesus suffer.

If it was God's will for Jesus to suffer, and the servant is not greater than his master, how in the world can Christians think that suffering isn't part of God's plan for us?

The question isn't, does God plan for his people to suffer? The question rather is, to what end does God permit (or require) his people to suffer? If you ask that question, the bible is replete with answers. If you ask the former question, the bible presents you with nothing but puzzles.

Jesus suffered because the powers-that-be could not accept his message or ministry. It was God's will that he carry his ministry to completion -- not that he suffer, particularly. Jesus was a smart fellow. He knew what was up, if he carried on. He chose to carry on, not because it would lead to suffering, but in spite of it leading to suffering.

You're right the question isn't, "Does God plan for God's people to suffer?" God doesn't "plan" for us to suffer -- to any extent. But God knows that we do suffer. The question that asks, "where is God in human suffering?" is called theodicy. It is never the right answer to hang anyone on a cross to suffer, be it Jesus, a homosexual, a black woman, or anyone else. God abhors suffering. Period. The Bible is replete with cheap, easy answers if you eisegete them to be there. But the Bible, properly exegeted, raises many more questions than it answers.

[sojourner]

Substitutionary Atonement is the entire foundation of the message of the Bible.

No it isn't. Being found by God is the entire foundation of the message of the Bible.

And regardless of what you call it, "Sola Fide" has always been taught because it is the only way in which the Bible teaches salvation.

Sola fide is clearly a Protestant fabrication -- not an ancient one, as a knee-jerk reaction to the selling of indulgences, among other things. Read your church history.
The Bible teaches that salvation is from God, not by our act of faith.

These are core Biblical teachings,

I disagree. It may work for you; fine if that's the case. But it doesn't work for the majority of Xy. There are plenty of other Biblical viewpoints that are just as valid, that are not driven by the Protestant agenda.

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by sojourner

Jesus suffered because the powers-that-be could not accept his message or ministry. It was God's will that he carry his ministry to completion -- not that he suffer, particularly. Jesus was a smart fellow. He knew what was up, if he carried on. He chose to carry on, not because it would lead to suffering, but in spite of it leading to suffering.

You're right the question isn't, "Does God plan for God's people to suffer?" God doesn't "plan" for us to suffer -- to any extent. But God knows that we do suffer. The question that asks, "where is God in human suffering?" is called theodicy. It is never the right answer to hang anyone on a cross to suffer, be it Jesus, a homosexual, a black woman, or anyone else. God abhors suffering. Period. The Bible is replete with cheap, easy answers if you eisegete them to be there. But the Bible, properly exegeted, raises many more questions than it answers.

Isaiah 53


Who has believed what we have heard?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?

For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

He was despised and rejected by others;
a man of suffering and acquainted with infirmity;
and as one from whom others hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him of no account.

Surely he has borne our infirmities
and carried our diseases;
yet we accounted him stricken,
struck down by God, and afflicted.

But he was wounded for our transgressions,
crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the punishment that made us whole,
and by his bruises we are healed.

All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have all turned to our own way,
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

By a perversion of justice he was taken away.
Who could have imagined his future?
For he was cut off from the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people.

They made his grave with the wicked
and his tomb with the rich,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.

Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him with pain.
When you make his life an offering for sin,
he shall see his offspring, and shall prolong his days;
through him the will of the Lord shall prosper.

Out of his anguish he shall see light;
he shall find satisfaction through his knowledge.
The righteous one, my servant, shall make many righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.

Therefore I will allot him a portion with the great,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;
because he poured out himself to death,
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

QED