A Question for fellow Christians. (Jesus, Moses, Earth, gospel) - Page 15

Ratiocinative · #**141** 02-12-2008, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Ratio, I actually agree with quite a bit of what you have said. I just think you're over-simplifying and over-generalizing.

Over-simplifying and over-generalizing what? That Jesus is the only way to salvation? John 14:6 is pretty clear to me, no one comes to the father except though Jesus. John 3:18 is also very clear, "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I'm not sure whether this is directed to me specifically, but I can tell you that I have already completed the search and have found the truth.

No, I wasn't directing that at anyone in particular, it was just a 'food for thought' type question. But I will direct this at you:

Galatians 1:6-9 (KJV) 6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Katzpur · #**142** 02-12-2008, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratiocinative

Over-simplifying and over-generalizing what? That Jesus is the only way to salvation? John 14:6 is pretty clear to me, no one comes to the father except though Jesus. John 3:18 is also very clear, "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

You still haven't shown me how a person can believe in someone he's never even heard of.

Quote:

No, I wasn't directing that at anyone in particular, it was just a 'food for thought' type question. But I will direct this at you:

Galatians 1:6-9 (KJV) 6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Great verse!

Francine · #**143** 02-12-2008, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starfish

I understood Francine's post to say that it was the denial of access to the fruit of the Tree of Life that caused their fall to mortality.

Mortality is not a primary consequence of the fall, but a secondary consequence. The primary consequence of the fall was the loss of a close relationship between man and God. And if you think about it, mortality in that event is more a blessing than a curse.

Starfish · #**144** 02-12-2008, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francine

Mortality is not a primary consequence of the fall, but a secondary consequence. The primary consequence of the fall was the loss of a close relationship between man and God. And if you think about it, mortality in that event is more a blessing than a curse.

The primary consequence of the fall, as you put it, is spiritual death, meaning the separation between us and God. The secondary consequence, mortality, is physical death, or the separation of the spirit and body. I think we agree here. These two deaths are the result of the fall.

To take it further: Christ overcame the physical death through his resurrection, meaning our bodies and spirits will reunite. Christ also overcame spiritual death through the atonement. He paid the price for our sins enabling us to be reunited with God.

Ratiocinative · #**145** 02-12-2008, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katzpur

You still haven't shown me how a person can believe in someone he's never even heard of.

We already went over this. Never hearing about Christ and never having a chance to hear about Christ are two different things. You can't ignore God your entire life and then expect to get a freebie because you did so. Everyone has a tons of chances to learn about Christ, and it isn't anyones fault but your own if you refuse to do so. There is no example of anyone in scripture being saved without Christ, and tons of verses stating that Christ is the only way to be saved.

Sola'lor · #**146** 02-13-2008, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francine

Mortality is not a primary consequence of the fall, but a secondary consequence. The primary consequence of the fall was the loss of a close relationship between man and God. And if you think about it, mortality in that event is more a blessing than a curse.

I agree with you. Seperation between us and God is Spiritual Death. Then we also have mortal bodies that die. Both are the result of the fall. Only through Christ's atonement can we overcome both. I agree that mortality is more of a blessing than a curse. I believe it was all part of God's plan that Adam and Eve became mortal. Satan didn't disrupt God's plan in the least when he tempted Eve. He was just a pawn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratiocinative

We already went over this. Never hearing about Christ and never having a chance to hear about Christ are two different things. You can't ignore God your entire life and then expect to get a freebie because you did so. Everyone has a tons of chances to learn about Christ, and it isn't anyones fault but your own if you refuse to do so. There is no example of anyone in scripture being saved without Christ, and tons of verses stating that Christ is the only way to be saved.

I agree with you overall. There are people on this planet thwill never have the chance in this life to learn of Christ. The purpose of missionary work is to bring the gospel to as many people as possible. But I also believe that those who didn't have the chance to hear about Christ will have the chance in the Spirit World. There is spiritual missionary work going on in the spirit world and every will hear about Christ.

Katzpur · #**147** 02-14-2008, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratiocinative

We already went over this. Never hearing about Christ and never having a chance to hear about Christ are two different things.

Yeah, we went over it, but you didn't give me any answers that made sense. I'm talking about the people who never had a chance to hear about Christ. What do you think will be their fate?

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You can't ignore God your entire life and then expect to get a freebie because you did so.

Nobody's suggesting that, Ratio.

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Everyone has a tons of chances to learn about Christ...

Except for the ones who didn't.

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There is no example of anyone in scripture being saved without Christ, and tons of verses stating that Christ is the only way to be saved.

I agree. The Bible says that salvation is through Christ alone, but it's pretty vague about what happens to those who die without knowing that. You know... the hundreds of millions of people you are simply pretending never existed.

Ratiocinative · #**148** 02-17-2008, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Yeah, we went over it, but you didn't give me any answers that made sense. I'm talking about the people who never had a chance to hear about Christ. What do you think will be their fate?

You just said you agreed with me a couple pages back. If you never make an effort to learn about God, then you can't complain about never hearing about Christ. If you seek after God then he will make sure you find him, but if you decide not to then you can't complain if you never learn about him. The Bible is very clear that Christ is the only way to heaven.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Nobody's suggesting that, Ratio.

Sure you are, what other conclusion can you come to with your thinking? If a person ignores God their entire life and makes no effort to learn about him, then dies, they're going to hell because they don't have faith in Christ. Yet, you say that they are necessarily going to hell, so they must be getting a freebie somewhere according to you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Except for the ones who didn't.

There isn't anyone who doesn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I agree. The Bible says that salvation is through Christ alone, but it's pretty vague about what happens to those who die without knowing that. You know... the hundreds of millions of people you are simply pretending never existed.

How is that vague? Faith in Christ = saved, no faith in Christ = not saved.

Sola'lor · #**149** 02-17-2008, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratiocinative

You just said you agreed with me a couple pages back. If you never make an effort to learn about God, then you can't complain about never hearing about Christ. If you seek after God then he will make sure you find him, but if you decide not to then you can't complain if you never learn about him. The Bible is very clear that Christ is the only way to heaven.

What about those who honestly search for God and find Allah or tribal gods? There's nowhere for them to learn about Christ so their only option is the god(s) of the area where they live. Are they going to be condemned because they never had a chance to learn of Christ in this life?