A Question for fellow Christians. (Jesus, Moses, Earth, gospel)

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by roli

Are you saying that they would not have had children unless they fell into sin.

That's what we're saying. That's what we believe -- that the ability to procreate is part of the mortal condition.

If so, as verse 23 above states ,it goes against scripture in Gen 1:28 ,God had said "multiply" before the fall.

Yes, He told them to multiply, but until they ate the forbidden fruit, they were like little children in terms of their sexual awareness. They didn't even realize that they were naked. The first indication that they were sexually active is not until after the Fall, at which time we are told that Adam "knew" Eve and she had children.

Actually what are all these verses trying to convey, they are very profound and divine sounding but such a play on words, it really frustrates me.
Example , vs 22,"If Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen" ya, this is a self evident truth, why the need to use so many words to tell us what is already a given.

Could you explain in laymen terms what these verses are trying to say.

I think all they're saying is that he would not have entered into a mortal state unless he had transgressed.

[Starfish]

Originally Posted by roli

Are you saying that they would not have had children unless they fell into sin.
If so, as verse 23 above states ,it goes against scripture in Gen 1:28 ,God had said "multiply" before the fall.

Actually what are all these verses trying to convey, they are very profound and divine sounding but such a play on words, it really frustrates me.
Example , vs 22,"If Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen" ya, this is a self evident truth, why the need to use so many words to tell us what is already a given.

Could you explain in laymen terms what these verses are trying to say.

I'll take a stab at it.
In Gen. 3:16 it implies that at this point Eve can now bear children. (Previous to the fall, they could not bear children.)
God did give them the commandment to multiply, before they fell, but they weren't able to fulfill it yet. Just like in Gen. 1:30, they are given beasts, fowl, and herbs for meat (food). But they couldn't kill the beasts or fowl for food yet, because there was no death yet. So some of the instruction was for a future time.

It is typical for scriptures to be very wordy. Part of the challenge of reading them.

[Francine]

Originally Posted by Starfish

It was barred after they'd eaten the fruit from the other tree so that they wouldn't live forever in a sinful state.

If Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Life before they fell, then their fallen state somehow caused the immortality given by the Tree of Life to fail. But this doesn't make sense, because God is concerned that they will eat the Tree of Life in their fallen state and live forever. This means the Tree of Life grants immortality to both fallen and non-fallen people, as long as they keep eating the fruit. So when God barred the way to Eden with some cherubs, that was what caused Adam and Eve to die, not their fallen state.

[Starfish]

Originally Posted by Francine

If Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Life before they fell, then their fallen state somehow caused the immortality given by the Tree of Life to fail. But this doesn't make sense, because God is concerned that they will eat the Tree of Life in their fallen state and live forever. This means the Tree of Life grants immortality to both fallen and non-fallen people, as long as they keep eating the fruit. So when God barred the way to Eden with some cherubs, that was what caused Adam and Eve to die, not their fallen state.

That's interesting. I've never thought of that. I'll stick to my Church's doctrine on that matter, but your explanation is still interesting. Thanks.

[roli]

Originally Posted by Starfish

I'll take a stab at it.
In Gen. 3:16 it implies that at this point Eve can now bear children. (Previous to the fall, they could not bear children.)
God did give them the commandment to multiply, before they fell, but they weren't able to fulfill it yet. Just like in Gen. 1:30, they are given beasts, fowl, and herbs for meat (food). But they couldn't kill the beasts or fowl for food yet, because there was no death yet. So some of the instruction was for a future time.

It is typical for scriptures to be very wordy. Part of the challenge of reading them.

You took a stab alright , in the dark and you missed.
WOW!! ,this is way out there, where do you come up with this philosophy.

That makes no sense,how can you even imagine God saying that ,sorry, that's right, he did'nt. He did'nt even imply that.
..."Go multiply, but wait, you can't do it yet ,you must wait until you fall into sin and are under the curse""...ALRIGHT THEN!!

Why do you stop at the children coming about only after the fall,he made man in his image, gave them dominion over the earth and every living thing and by the way , he did'nt give them the meat to eat , only herbs for both the man and the beast

Gen 1:28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

,,read closely, there is only 3 verses here. Where do you see God giving them meat to eat,as in animals or beasts.
Before the fall men were given herbs and fruit ,seeds to eat ,...no meat anywhere in these scriptures.
and you will see in verse 30 he distinguishes that the beasts of the earth were also given herbs to eat for food, not each other.

Gen 1:29And God said, Behold, I have given you (man) every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Gen 1:30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein [there is] life, [I have given] every green herb for meat: and it was so. meat = food

[roli]

[quote=Katzpur;1069016]

That's what we're saying. That's what we believe -- that the ability to procreate is part of the mortal condition.

According to scripture,that makes no sense,
Gen 1:28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it:.....
This clearly distinguishes a prefall blessing here.

This speaks clearly of the effects of the fall.
Gen 3:16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Gen 3:17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;
Where do you get your presumptions from and why do you believe something that is not written.

The whole idea behind God blessing us is giving man the ability to procreate before the fall and have dominion over all the earth.Just because he did'nt does not imply God made it that way. I'd be a bit preoccupied as well if I had just violated the law and was on the run from him who was quick to punish me, sex would probably be the last thing I would be thinking about if I was on the lamb.

Yes, He told them to multiply, but until they ate the forbidden fruit, they were like little children in terms of their sexual awareness. They didn't even realize that they were naked. The first indication that they were sexually active is not until after the Fall, at which time we are told that Adam "knew" Eve and she had children.

God told them to leave there parents and become one flesh before the fall and Adam speaks it out in
Gen 2:24

I think all they're saying is that he would not have entered into a mortal state unless he had transgressed

I understand what your trying to saying but this is not in question.
We know they fell into a mortal state after the fall, but procreation was an intended design prior to the fall, which is clear to see.
I don't think we can understand that state of man prior to the fall only that man walked and communed with God in such a way that was perfect harmony.
They were made this way and intended to procreate this way.
Maybe they were'nt even immortal prior to the fall, yet still had perfect relationship with God.
Remember the tree of life was in the garden for them to eat, but they went straight for the tree that they were told not to partake of.

[Starfish]

Originally Posted by roli

,,read closely, there is only 3 verses here. Where do you see God giving them meat to eat,as in animals or beasts.
Before the fall men were given herbs and fruit ,seeds to eat ,...no meat anywhere in these scriptures.
and you will see in verse 30 he distinguishes that the beasts of the earth were also given herbs to eat for food, not each other.

Gen 1:29And God said, Behold, I have given you (man) every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Gen 1:30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein [there is] life, [I have given] every green herb for meat: and it was so. meat = food

Very good point. You're probably right here. It is a challenging story to understand with the little information we have.

[quote=roli;1070020][quote=Katzpur;1069016]
Where do you get your presumptions from and why do you believe something that is not written.

God told them to leave there parents and become one flesh before the fall and Adam speaks it out in
Gen 2:24

[quote]

Here's an interesting question: What parents was God refering to? Couldn't have been Adam's or Eve's.
Another question for thought: How long were they in the garden? Since they didn't age, it could have been a very long time. Now if you believe children could be born before the fall, you would have to think they weren't there very long.

The presumption that they couldn't bear children before the fall, comes from the Book of Mormon. So, to us, it is written.

Why would God give a commandment they were yet incapable of fulfilling? I just don't see this as so illogical as you do. As I said before, we have so little of the story.

What I do find illogical is that God would intend for us all to be born and live in the garden and then have his plan go awry.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Starfish

That's interesting. I've never thought of that. I'll stick to my Church's doctrine on that matter, but your explanation is still interesting. Thanks.

Starfish, I think if you'll reread Francine's post, you'll find that it's actually pretty much in line with LDS doctrine. God placed cheribim and a flaming sword to quard the Tree of Life so that Adam and Eve would not eat from it, and thereby live forever in their sins. I would agree with you that the Fall itself brought about spiritual death, since they were cast out of Eden and no longer enjoyed God's presence, but I think that Francine has a good point about the Tree of Life. If they had been able to eat from it after they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they'd have still been cast out of Eden, but would have never experienced physical death. At least that's my understanding.

[Starfish]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Starfish, I think if you'll reread Francine's post, you'll find that it's actually pretty much in line with LDS doctrine. God placed cheribim and a flaming sword to quard the Tree of Life so that Adam and Eve would not eat from it, and thereby live forever in their sins. I would agree with you that the Fall itself brought about spiritual death, since they were cast out of Eden and no longer enjoyed God's presence, but I think that Francine has a good point about the Tree of Life. If they had been able to eat from it after they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they'd have still been cast out of Eden, but would have never experienced physical death. At least that's my understanding.

I understood Francine's post to say that it was the denial of access to the fruit of the Tree of Life that caused their fall to mortality. Not their eating of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. Did I get it wrong? (Wouldn't be the first time!)
And of course I agree with you that after they ate the forbidden fruit and fell, they were then barred from the Tree of Life. Thanks.