Christians - The Fall of Adam and the Atonement (choice, Satan)

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Comprehend

I wasn't trying to impress you. Would you care to explain why?

I took out that comment...I guess I have a very hard time accepting the idea that God would set out wanting to punish humanity and then essentially play a game in which He pretends to not want us to have knowledge, when really He wants us to have knowledge so He can punish us.

I think this is the downfall of trying to interpret this story literally.

[Comprehend]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I took out that comment...I guess I have a very hard time accepting the idea that God would set out wanting to punish humanity and then essentially play a game in which He pretends to not want us to have knowledge, when really He wants us to have knowledge so He can punish us.

I think this is the downfall of trying to interpret this story literally.

(don't worry about it)

God wasn't playing a game with us nor did he want to punish us, you confuse need with desire. Of course God wants us to have knowledge, we were put on the earth to learn and progress. Nor did he want us to have knowledge simply to punish us. He wanted us to have knowledge and while a punishment did come from eating the fruit (spiritual and physical death), there also came the ability to progress. Finally Jesus erased the punishment with the Atonement. Which of course was planned from before the foundation of the world.

It was necessary for Jesus to die for the Atonement to have effect, yet I seriously doubt God "wanted" it to happen in the way you are suggesting God wanted to punish Adam and Eve.

I ask you:

If the Atonement was planned from before the earth was created, how do you imagine the Fall was not also planned since the only reason we would need an Atonement is if there was first a Fall?



Have you seen the one on one debate Victor and I had on this topic?

[sandy whitelinger]

Originally Posted by Comprehend

Did God put the tree there on purpose or was it a mistake?

God doesn't make mistakes, silly. (He does regret His decisions on occasion though)

[sandy whitelinger]

Originally Posted by Comprehend

Of course God wants us to have knowledge, we were put on the earth to learn and progress.

Do you have direct scripture to prove this point?

[sandy whitelinger]

Originally Posted by Comprehend

He wanted us to have knowledge and while a punishment did come from eating the fruit (spiritual and physical death)...

That was a consequence and not a punishment. The punishment was to toil for Adam and to suffer sorrow in childbirth for Eve.

[sandy whitelinger]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I took out that comment...I guess I have a very hard time accepting the idea that God would set out wanting to punish humanity and then essentially play a game in which He pretends to not want us to have knowledge, when really He wants us to have knowledge so He can punish us.

I think this is the downfall of trying to interpret this story literally.

I believe the point of offering temptation is so that man will follow God willingly and not because we were programmed to do so. God doesn't automatons but willing followers.

Also God has no desire to punish but His righteousness demands it of Him. In order for Him to be just He must follow His rules.

[Mister Emu]

He definitely set the stage to facilitate the outcome He knew would ultimately be the most beneficial to them.

If eating the fruit would be the most beneficial outcome, why not just have them eat it? Why all the skullduggery...

Great. The only serious response I get is from someone who believes the same way I do

How was my response not serious? I think that God gave man the ability to depart from what He wishes of them...

[SoyLeche]

Originally Posted by Mister Emu

If eating the fruit would be the most beneficial outcome, why not just have them eat it? Why all the skullduggery...

It's possible that the most beneficial outcome didn't come from the fruit, per se, but from choosing to disobey. I haven't given this one much thought though.

[Comprehend]

Originally Posted by sandy whitelinger

God doesn't make mistakes, silly. (He does regret His decisions on occasion though)

Exactly, God doesn't make mistakes. The tree was there as part of the plan.