Christian: Homosexuality a sin? (Jesus Christ, moral, Leviticus, Kingdom, choice)

[farfignewton]

Originally Posted by tomspug

I did. I said selfish ambition of sex is not love. I see homosexuality as just another selfish ambition.

Ok, view point of another christian.

Are you implying that there arent those who honestly look at the same sex and find a basic level of attraction? I agree that homosexuality is a choice, but so is hedrosexuality. There are those in the world that would be going against what they belive to be right, by not being gay. Is that wrong of them? No, christianity isnt supposed to be about tollerance, but it is supposed to be about love. What about those male couples that hold hands when they walk down the street, or feel the need introduce their partners to their families? is that selfish ambition? The gay man who gets in the way of a bullet for his partner, is that selfish ambition? No. I dont think so.

To say that homosexuality is about sex, and thats it, is foolish. All it means is that a person find an attraction with the same sex more than the oppisite. I would rather meet a gay man who has found one partner and stuck with him for life than a man who is straight, but has slept with dozens of people. To judge being gay as the worst form of sin is wrong. There are so many worse people in the world than that. I would say to look at yourself, and see if you possess the same amount of selfless love that some of these people do.

*FYI, I am Straight, Christian, and happily married for the last 10 years to a woman. I just feel that everyone should have the same rights, and judgement passed down on them.*

[angellous_evangellous]

Originally Posted by farfignewton

What about those male couples that hold hands when they walk down the street, or feel the need introduce their partners to their families? is that selfish ambition? The gay man who gets in the way of a bullet for his partner, is that selfish ambition? No. I dont think so.

To say that homosexuality is about sex, and thats it, is foolish.

Plato comes to mind:

Originally Posted by angellous_evangellous

We can compare that to my favorite ancient reference concerning homosexuality and nature:

Plato, Sym. 192a

Some say they are shameless creatures, but falsely: for their behavior is due not to shamelessness but to daring, manliness, and virility, since they are quick to welcome their like. Sure evidence of this is the fact that on reaching maturity these alone prove in a public career to be men. So when they come to man's estate they are boy-lovers, and have no natural interest in wiving and getting children, but only do these things under stress of custom; they are quite contented to live together unwedded all their days. A man of this sort is at any rate born to be a lover of boys or the willingmate of a man, eagerly greeting his own kind.

[tomspug]

Originally Posted by farfignewton

Ok, view point of another christian.

What about those male couples that hold hands when they walk down the street, or feel the need introduce their partners to their families? is that selfish ambition? The gay man who gets in the way of a bullet for his partner, is that selfish ambition? No. I dont think so.

You're confusing acts of devotion and affection as having anything to do with sexuality. Someone jumping in front of a bullet has nothing to do with sex!

If you're going to say that everyone should be allowed to be who they feel they are, shouldn't we then use that logic to say that pedophiles, who have a strong attraction to children, should be allowed to be who they are? You can still love that person and tell them at the same time that you think that what they do is wrong.

Homosexuality is an ACTION, not an identity. You can disagree with an action and still love people.

[farfignewton]

Originally Posted by tomspug

You're confusing acts of devotion and affection as having anything to do with sexuality. Someone jumping in front of a bullet has nothing to do with sex!

Ive youve ever met my wife, you know that false.

Originally Posted by tomspug

If you're going to say that everyone should be allowed to be who they feel they are, shouldn't we then use that logic to say that pedophiles, who have a strong attraction to children, should be allowed to be who they are? You can still love that person and tell them at the same time that you think that what they do is wrong.

I would have to say that the diffrance between pedophiles and gays is extreem.
A gay has a consenting partner, of legal age.
Usualy a pedophile coerses their victems into a form of trust, then threatens them if the tell.
Even if the pedophile has a consenting partner, the morality of our society says no. What do you think of the times where 12 was the legal age to wed? Usualy it would be a man in his late 40's marrying those young girls. Is that wrong? or just a theme of the times? Is there an age limit in the bible as to when two people can fall in love?

I belive that rape is wrong, regardless of the age. I also belive that being Gay is wrong, but I see no reason to restrict their rights as we would a pedophile, or to sort them into a catigory of sin all its own.

And, yes, people should be allowed to be who they "feel" they are. Your "feel" your a christian, and so you are. People "Feel" that they have no religion at all, so they dont. People "feel" that they love the people around them, so they do. Those who "feel" that extreme crimes are ok, will be punished by the law. What we are asking is not a question of right or wrong for christians, we are asking how far the punnishment for them should go, according to our beliefs.

Originally Posted by tomspug

Homosexuality is an ACTION, not an identity. You can disagree with an action and still love people.

You can say the same about your religion. Your Religion is an Action, a mind set, and an identity. You cannot pick and choose how others view themselves based on your convictions, that is for them to deside. The relatationship that I have with god is mine alone, as with every other person on this plannet. Even in a fellowship of belivers, each has their own version of God that they hold dear to their hearts. To say that they are identifying themselves by something YOU dont belive in is to judge too quickly. How much in your own life have you based on your sexuality? Your choice in partner, your social circles, how you raise your kids, most even adhere to what their religions say about it, weather in pratice or the practicing of guilt. Please come up with a better arguement than homosexuality is not an identity, it makes us christians look bad. Your identity is what every you deem it to be.

[tomspug]

Sorry, I'll clarify. I meant that when I say that the Bible condemns homosexuality AS AN ACT, not as an identity, that is because the act itself is not good. And it's not good not because the bible said so but because it isn't good for the person. Our opinions can differ on that and they will.

I however, do not look down on another person for being a homosexual. That in my opinion would be hypocritical, because I believe I am a sinner just like everyone else. I am no better than a murderer or a pedophile because I am still fallen (all people are no better than murders and pedophiles, btw, because "all have sinned and fallen short"). I need Jesus just as badly as everybody else. That's what I'm trying to say.

[stephenw]

Originally Posted by tomspug

Sorry, I'll clarify. I meant that when I say that the Bible condemns homosexuality AS AN ACT, not as an identity, that is because the act itself is not good. And it's not good not because the bible said so but because it isn't good for the person. Our opinions can differ on that and they will.

I however, do not look down on another person for being a homosexual. That in my opinion would be hypocritical, because I believe I am a sinner just like everyone else. I am no better than a murderer or a pedophile because I am still fallen (all people are no better than murders and pedophiles, btw, because "all have sinned and fallen short"). I need Jesus just as badly as everybody else. That's what I'm trying to say.

If you want to bracket yourself with murderers or padophiles feel free, feel as fallen as you want. But don't include me thanks.

[tomspug]

And THAT'S exactly why you're not a Christian. What have you accomplished in your life that you think you somehow DESERVE to get into heaven? No one does.

By saying something like that, you're basically telling me that you think of yourself as BETTER than other people just because you haven't done certain things. Or maybe, maybe other people have been through more crap in their life than you have and have felt they had to resort to things that they thought they would never do. And somehow your better than them because you had, what? More courage? More value? When you walk past a homeless person, do you feel better than them? Please explain to me exactly HOW you separate yourself from prostitutes, thieves, and murderers? They do what they do because their desperate, not because they're comfortable like you. If you were in their position, you'd probably do the same thing. Would you argue with that?

[dance-above]

Originally Posted by I Panicked! At the Disco

So you believe that the 10 commandments and the words in red are somehow more important than the rest of the Bible?

Anyway...I voted that homosexuality is a sin, for the same reasons Vassal posted in their first post. A dude lusting after some dude is sinful just like me (a girl, in case you didn't get that) lusting after some dude. A homosexual couple having premarital sexual relations is sinful just as a heterosexual couple having premarital relations. Both EQUALLY sinful. Sometimes I think Christians get caught up in homosexuality being this bad evil thing, when it's no more evil than lying or stealing or killing or adultery.

I agree.