Does Mormonism teach Pelagianism? (reject, gospel, tradition, beliefs, choice)

[Scott1]

Originally Posted by Polaris

I'm sure we believe in several doctrines that you consider erroneous, but we do not believe in pelagianism.

Since it applies to the OP (and the rejection of Mormonism), I would like you to discuss the validity of this commentary:

Final Section: The heresy of Pelagianism and its similarity to Mormon teaching on original sin

This final section is included as the ancient heresy of Pelagianism also denied Original Sin, and had some similarities with Mormonism's teaching on this subject
In summary:
Pelagianism (extracted from Catholic Encyclopedia: Pelagius and Pelagianism )

• 1. Even if Adam had not sinned, he would have died.
• 2. Adam's sin harmed only himself, not the human race.
• 3. Children just born are in the same state as Adam before his fall.
• 4. The whole human race neither dies through Adam's sin or death, nor rises again through the resurrection of Christ.

Pelagianism also taught that the Mosaic Law was as good a guide to heaven as the Gospel.
The teachings of Pelagius changed somewhat.These can be summarized as follows: (again, this is an extract from the Catholic Encyclopedia: Pelagius and Pelagianism )

• The first position which Pelagius held was that Adam would have died anyway, regardless if the Fall had happened or not, and his sin injured himself, not the whole human race. It was condemned at the Council of Carthage (see Romans 5:12 Adam transmits death with sin)
• Pelagian second position: parents transmit diesase to children, so parents transmit death. But they do not transmit sin. This was condemned at the Council of Orange, and again at Trent.
  This position is similar to the Mormon position.
• Pelagians then gave up equating sin with death so said Adam CAUSED sin in us, not, however, by hereditary transmission, but (they said), the sin of Adam in imitation of Adam. Again, condemned by Trent.

How Mormon doctrine resembles Pelagianism (with differences):

• Similarities: Mormons, like Pelagians, say Adam's sin hurt himself, but not others. Mormons go so far as to say Adam's transgression was necessary in order to avoid being stuck forever in Eden. Mormons, like Pelagians, say that death, not sin, is transmitted from parent to child. Mormons, like Pelagians, cannot say how a loving God who is all good could introduce death and suffering into the world if Adam was not really guilty of sin. The traditional Christian view, of course, is that Adam did really sin and lost his inheritance for himself and his children. See also Wisdom 2:24

  "But by the envy of the devil death came into the world".

  Death came into the world, not by the will of God, to get people to "progress" but by the 'envy of the devil'.
• Differences: Mormons say Adam's sin was a not a sin, but a transgression, which was necessary for 'progression'. Pelagius said Adam would have died anyway; Mormons do not say this.

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[Polaris]

While there are some slight similarities between Pelagianism and LDS belief, Mormons do not believe in Pelagianism.

Pelagianism (extracted from Catholic Encyclopedia: Pelagius and Pelagianism )

• 1. Even if Adam had not sinned, he would have died.
• 2. Adam's sin harmed only himself, not the human race.
• 3. Children just born are in the same state as Adam before his fall.
• 4. The whole human race neither dies through Adam's sin or death, nor rises again through the resurrection of Christ.

We disagree with all 4 of the primary beliefs of Pelagianism.

1. We flat out disagree here. Adam's transgression is what brought death into the world.
2. Adam's transgression most definitely affected the human race, though we believe it didn't necessarily harm the human race.
3. Children are not born in the same state as Adam -- he was born in an immortal state of perfect innocence, we are born into a fallen mortal state with tendencies towards sin.
4. Again we completely disagree here.

• Pelagian second position: parents transmit diesase to children, so parents transmit death. But they do not transmit sin. This was condemned at the Council of Orange, and again at Trent.
  This position is similar to the Mormon position.

This is correct, we agree with Pelagianism that parents don't transmit sins to their children. I find it absurd to believe otherwise.

Mormons, like Pelagians, cannot say how a loving God who is all good could introduce death and suffering into the world if Adam was not really guilty of sin. The traditional Christian view, of course, is that Adam did really sin and lost his inheritance for himself and his children. See also Wisdom 2:24

Here is a point worth mentioning. We believe that the ability to sin requires the ability to discern good from evil. The Bible teaches that that knowledge came AFTER Adam partook of the fruit. Therefore Adam's transgression was not sin, in the true sense of the word. By partaking of the fruit Adam caused knowledge of good and evil to come into the world along with physical death and suffering. Sin is a natural result of having knowledge and the freedom to make our own choice.

The bottom line is that we do not believe in Pelagianism because we disagree with several of it's fundamental beliefs.

[Scott1]

Thanks for taking the time to give your opinion.

In Christ,
S

[Bishka]

Originally Posted by Scott1

Thanks for taking the time to give your opinion.

In Christ,
S

It's actually more then opinion, it's fact, I completely concur that is what the LDS Church teaches. It is a good question though, one that deserves a good answer.

[Scott1]

Originally Posted by beckysoup61

It's actually more then opinion, it's fact, I completely concur that is what the LDS Church teaches. It is a good question though, one that deserves a good answer.

Ummm... you actually expect me to debate a LDS member about what the LDS believe?

That's not gonna happen.... besides the fact that it's been my experience that I can rarely get an answer that comes close to making sense to me... we just speak a different theological language.

I'm sorry if this is not the "good answer" that you feel you "deserve", but that's all I've got for ya.

Peace,
S

[Bishka]

Originally Posted by Scott1

Ummm... you actually expect me to debate a LDS member about what the LDS believe?

That's not gonna happen.... besides the fact that it's been my experience that I can rarely get an answer that comes close to making sense to me... we just speak a different theological language.

I'm sorry if this is not the "good answer" that you feel you "deserve", but that's all I've got for ya.

Peace,
S

What? I was just saying it's actual fact and not an opinion and then complimenting you on your question. Is that a problem?

Edit: I think we speak a similar theological language, we just have different definitions for the words that we know. Nothing to fret about, we do our best to explain and you do yours.

[Scott1]

Originally Posted by beckysoup61

What? I was just saying it's actual fact and not an opinion and then complimenting you on your question. Is that a problem?

Ooops...now I get ya.....

.... but I still consider it an opinion. I do believe many elements of your group are based in this ancient heresy.... and I've debated LDS members several times who confirm this.... I never know who to believe.... but thanks for your opinion.

[Bishka]

Originally Posted by Scott1

Ooops...now I get ya.....

.... but I still consider it an opinion. I do believe many elements of your group are based in this ancient heresy.... and I've debated LDS members several times who confirm this.... I never know who to believe.... but thanks for your opinion.

Well, what Polaris says is a fact, I'm sure that we could find some links for you that would show you (although I'm too muddled-headed to think right now) and it might clear it up a bit.

No worries though.