Why Dont Christians Accept the Book of Mormon as Valid? (Jesus, Earth) - Page 26

sojourner · #**251** 10-19-2007, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madhatter85

Jesus Christ payed for us, he owns us, he took our sins, It is by His grace that we are forgiven if we repent, Grace is a reward based program, you must do in order to partake of Grace because the Lord is not a repsecter of persons.

Only if you believe in Substitutionary Atonement.. I do not.

madhatter85 · #**252** 10-19-2007, 02:43 PM

Then how can you be a christian?

sojourner · #**253** 10-19-2007, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoyLeche

I'm not asking you to. Your the one making claims about what I believe, and what I should believe instead - not the other way around.

Say whatever the heck you want about what Mormons believe - but I do in fact believe that God loves you and everyone else at least as much as he loves me. I guess you probably understand what I believe better than I do though.

Actually, I'm quite happy with what you believe. Believe what you want. I think God's fine with what you believe. I think God's fine with what I believe. But when your beliefs spill out of your realm and try to take some of God's toys away from the rest of us...that's when I get defensive.

madhatter85 · #**254** 10-19-2007, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sojourner

Only if you believe in Substitutionary Atonement.. I do not.

Nice edit there, Exactly what do you mean by "Substitutionary"

If you don't believe Christ payed for our sins, how do you even believe in Christ, you can't half believe in Christ, it's an all or nothing program.

"If ye love me, keep my commandments."

SoyLeche · #**255** 10-19-2007, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sojourner

But when your beliefs spill out of your realm and try to take some of God's toys away from the rest of us...that's when I get defensive.

And if they did anything of the sort I might agree with you.

sojourner · #**256** 10-19-2007, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoyLeche

And if they did anything of the sort I might agree with you.

Don't tell others that they don't have any "real authority." That'd clear it up real quick.

sojourner · #**257** 10-19-2007, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madhatter85

Then how can you be a christian?

By believing in Christ and following him.

sojourner · #**258** 10-19-2007, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madhatter85

Nice edit there, Exactly what do you mean by "Substitutionary"

If you don't believe Christ payed for our sins, how do you even believe in Christ, you can't half believe in Christ, it's an all or nothing program.

"If ye love me, keep my commandments."

Substitutionary = "in place of"
Why does God, who is good, and who loves us, demand payment of blood? God is not a bad cop. It was the people who demanded Christ's blood -- not God.

madhatter85 · #**259** 10-19-2007, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sojourner

Substitutionary = "in place of"
Why does God, who is good, and who loves us, demand payment of blood? God is not a bad cop. It was the people who demanded Christ's blood -- not God.

Even God is subject to the demands of Justice. HE is a Just God, it says so all over the Bible.
Isaiah 9:

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7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Rom. 2:

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11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Romans 3:

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26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Hebrews 2:

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2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

Hebrew 10:

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30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Or how about this one?

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4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

This reaffirms my statement that we belong to christ.

Here's more on the atonement:
Isaiah 53:

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3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Hebrews 10:

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1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Calling yourself a Christian and not believeing in the Atonement is a contradiction.