Questions for Catholic & Orthodox Christians (Jesus, crucifixion, tradition, beliefs)

[Hope]

This is mainly directed at Orthodox and Catholic Christians, but whoever has any valuable insight please feel free to jump in. Some recent threads got me to thinking about why there is so much disagreement between most Protestant Christians and Orthodox and Catholic Christians. Catholics and Orthodox claim their beliefs and practices are older than that of Protestants, and therefore their Christianity is "real" Christianity, and Protestants have distorted things.

My first question is: on what evidence do Catholics and the Orthodox make this claim? I hear a lot about church tradition, and the church fathers. I'd love to have more insight into these, and how they back up the claims to authentic Christianity that we Protestants have somehow strayed from.

My second question is more specific: was substitutionary atonement the main point of the Crucifixion, and if not, on what basis do Catholics and/or the Orthodox claim it wasn't? Again, if Catholic and Orthodox Christians believe they have the true faith, then I'm very interested in hearing how such a conclusion is drawn, and I'd love to see evidence presented as well.

I ask these questions out of genuine curiosity. I have respect for both Catholics and Orthodox Christians, and believe they offer beautiful aspects to the Christian faith, however much I might disagree with them.

[athanasius]

Originally Posted by Hope

This is mainly directed at Orthodox and Catholic Christians, but whoever has any valuable insight please feel free to jump in. Some recent threads got me to thinking about why there is so much disagreement between most Protestant Christians and Orthodox and Catholic Christians. Catholics and Orthodox claim their beliefs and practices are older than that of Protestants, and therefore their Christianity is "real" Christianity, and Protestants have distorted things.

My first question is: on what evidence do Catholics and the Orthodox make this claim? I hear a lot about church tradition, and the church fathers. I'd love to have more insight into these, and how they back up the claims to authentic Christianity that we Protestants have somehow strayed from.

My second question is more specific: was substitutionary atonement the main point of the Crucifixion, and if not, on what basis do Catholics and/or the Orthodox claim it wasn't? Again, if Catholic and Orthodox Christians believe they have the true faith, then I'm very interested in hearing how such a conclusion is drawn, and I'd love to see evidence presented as well.

I ask these questions out of genuine curiosity. I have respect for both Catholics and Orthodox Christians, and believe they offer beautiful aspects to the Christian faith, however much I might disagree with them.

Well Part of the issue is just plain reading the fathers of the church and how the early Church believed and worshiped and practiced their faith. I would suggest a 3 volume set of writings by the Fathers called "the Faith of the early Fathers" By Jurgens. Here you can read much of their writings themselves and at least see from antiquity the doctrines the early christians believed in and how they worshipped. You can also read the counsels of the Church like Nicea and Constantinople, Ephesus Etc. These Early Catholic councils like the councils of Rome 382 Ad, Hippo 393 Carthage 397 Ad, helped decide and fix the New testament Canon that all Christians Adhere to. So it was this apostolic authority outside of the bible that early on was seen in the orthodox and Catholic Churches. . This antiquity(consistent tradition) and authority, along with Miracles, is the basis for Orthodox and Catholic belief

[MidnightBlue]

Originally Posted by Hope

My first question is: on what evidence do Catholics and the Orthodox make this claim? I hear a lot about church tradition, and the church fathers. I'd love to have more insight into these, and how they back up the claims to authentic Christianity that we Protestants have somehow strayed from.

There are so many areas in which Protestantism has diverged from Catholicism, and Catholicism from Orthodoxy (at least, in the Orthodox view) that it's hard to know where to begin. But doctrines like sola scriptura and justification by faith are undeniably relatively late deviations from more traditional theology.

Originally Posted by Hope

My second question is more specific: was substitutionary atonement the main point of the Crucifixion, and if not, on what basis do Catholics and/or the Orthodox claim it wasn't?

Depends what you mean by substitutionary atonement. The Protestant idea that Jesus was punished in our place to satisfy God's sense of "justice" is foreign to Orthodoxy.

In the Orthodox view, Jesus was simultaneously fully man and fully god; he identified with us so completely as to suffer as we do, and his complete identification with us, and assumption of our nature, is what unites the human to the divine, so that humans can become one with the divine.

[Victor]

Those are loaded questions. I want to give them the time they deserve. I shall be back.

Until then, have a read at this (post #8):
Why should i be Catholic?

~Victor

[Hope]

Originally Posted by athanasius

Well Part of the issue is just plain reading the fathers of the church and how the early Church believed and worshiped and practiced their faith. I would suggest a 3 volume set of writings by the Fathers called "the Faith of the early Fathers" By Jurgens. Here you can read much of their writings themselves and at least see from antiquity the doctrines the early christians believed in and how they worshipped. You can also read the counsels of the Church like Nicea and Constantinople, Ephesus Etc. These Early Catholic councils like the councils of Rome 382 Ad, Hippo 393 Carthage 397 Ad, helped decide and fix the New testament Canon that all Christians Adhere to. So it was this apostolic authority outside of the bible that early on was seen in the orthodox and Catholic Churches. . This antiquity(consistent tradition) and authority, along with Miracles, is the basis for Orthodox and Catholic belief

Thanks athanasius. Do you know where I could find that set of books? Are they books I'd have to buy, or could I find them at a library?

[Hope]

Originally Posted by MidnightBlue

There are so many areas in which Protestantism has diverged from Catholicism, and Catholicism from Orthodoxy (at least, in the Orthodox view) that it's hard to know where to begin. But doctrines like sola scriptura and justification by faith are undeniably relatively late deviations from more traditional theology.

Why are they "undeniably" late deviations? If you could elaborate and provide some references I'd appreciate it.

Depends what you mean by substitutionary atonement. The Protestant idea that Jesus was punished in our place to satisfy God's sense of "justice" is foreign to Orthodoxy.

In the Orthodox view, Jesus was simultaneously fully man and fully god; he identified with us so completely as to suffer as we do, and his complete identification with us, and assumption of our nature, is what unites the human to the divine, so that humans can become one with the divine.

This is the view I don't agree with. Do Catholics also hold this view, or is this something peculiar to Orthodox doctrine?

[Hope]

Originally Posted by Victor

Those are loaded questions. I want to give them the time they deserve. I shall be back.

Until then, have a read at this (post #8):
Why should i be Catholic?

~Victor

Thanks Victor. I read the thread. Very informative.

[MidnightBlue]

Originally Posted by Hope

Why are they "undeniably" late deviations? If you could elaborate and provide some references I'd appreciate it.

You'd like references showing they didn't exist before a certain date? That's kind of a tall order; proving the absence of something is tricky. However, I'd suggest you see Sola Scriptura, by Father John Whiteford.

Originally Posted by Hope

This is the view I don't agree with. Do Catholics also hold this view, or is this something peculiar to Orthodox doctrine?

The Catholic view is, from my perspective, closer to the classical Protestant view than to the Orthodox view, but not identical to either.

On the Orthodox idea of salvation, How Are We Saved?: The Understanding of Salvation in the Orthodox Tradition, by Metropolitan Kallistos (Ware) is an excellent introduction. Unfortunately, it seems to be out of print, and the copies I could find online are rather pricey. "Theosis" on OrthodoxWiki will give you an overview.

You could also see "The Meaning of Christ's Cross," by Bishop Alexander (Mileant).

Orthodox Christianity doesn't really even address the whole faith vs. works controversy as found in Western Christianity. The Orthodox don't believe that salvation is a matter of fulfilling certain requirements (whether of faith or works), but a matter of being united to the divine. That unity isn't achieved in an instant or by divine fiat, but is a whole process by which one is united more and more with God.