Christians: God is Not Omnipotent (ritual, contradiction, spiritual, bible)

[DeepShadow]

Originally Posted by Free4all

What about Rev. 19:6

Frubals for the challenge!

I stand corrected in part: the word is present in a single verse of the KJV, but the Greek term "Pantocrator" was given a different meaning in the Revised version; it seems translators differed and some chose a term established by tradition. Nevertheless, the definition for the term comes from tradition, not scripture. Or can you find me a scripture that states that God can do absolutely anything? (This isn't facetious; you've surprised me already)

According to Strong's Concordance, the term "Pantocrator" means "all-ruling," and is therefore a reference to God's sovereignty.

[Nick Soapdish]

Interesting topic DeepShadow. This is a dangerous debate because it seems so heavily soaked with semantic misunderstanding. With that disclaimer, here is my argument against what you are asserting.

To me, omnipotent means that God has ultimate authority. He created this Universe, the laws of physics and every being in the Universe, and He has complete power over them. He has chosen to give some beings freewill and the ability to act on their own.

In my opinion there is no genuine contradiction. God's nature is defined by the things that He chooses to do. Therefore, it is not possible to for God to act against His nature, because His nature is defined by how He acts. He still is omnipotent. He just chooses to act one way and not another.

The Riddle of Epicurus

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

My opinion on this is that the presence of evil is necessary when creatures are given freewill. All an evil action is is an action that disagrees with God's will. If creatures are able to act according to their own will and not God's, then by definition, evil must exist.

So the question is why did God decide to create creatures with freewill. That is a good question, but it does not mean that God is not omnipotent.

I also find the assertion you seem to make unsettling; that somehow God is not powerful enough to counter evil. The good news of the Gospel tells of God's plan to counter evil. If we think He isn't doing it the way we think He should, then perhaps we don't have the big picture like He does.

[Mister Emu]

Or can you find me a scripture that states that God can do absolutely anything?

Depends on how you interpret this verse:

Matt. 19:26
"...with God all things are possible."

[SoyLeche]

Originally Posted by lilithu

Nor is God omniscient. Otherwise, He would not have needed to test Job.

While I don't necessarily disagree with you - the test was more for Job's benefit than for God's.

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by SoyLeche

While I don't necessarily disagree with you - the test was more for Job's benefit than for God's.

That would require adding on a layer of interpretation that is not nascent in the text. Which doesn't mean it's wrong, but it's not necessarily true either. I could agree that Job benefited spiritually from the ordeal in the end, but at the expense of his first children, I'm not sure that I would have taken that trade if given the choice.

At any rate, I can think of other examples in the OT where God does not seem to know everything. The NT is another matter. At that point, Christians were viewing God from the Hellenistic view.

[Free4all]

Or can you find me a scripture that states that God can do absolutely anything?

Verses in which the absolute unlimited extent of God's power is affirmed are rare. The reason, however, lies not in any actual restriction placed on this power. The point to be noticed is that no statement is anywhere made exempting anything from the reach of divine power.

Nearest to a general formula come such statements as "Is anything too hard for the Lord" (Genesis 18:14; Jeremiah 32:17); or “I know that thou canst do everything” or “God . . . hath done whatever he pleased” (Psalm 115:3, 135:6), or, negatively, no one “can hinder” God, in carrying out His purpose (Isaiah 43:13), or God’s hand is not “waxed short” (Numbers 11:23)

In the New Testament: “With God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:26; Mark 10:27; Luke 18:27); “Nothing is impossible with God”. Indirectly the omnipotence of God is implied in the effect ascribed to faith (Matthew 17:20 “Nothing shall be impossible unto you”; Mark 9:23 “All things are possible to him that believeth”), because faith puts the divine power at the disposal of the believer.

On its subjective side the principle of inexhaustible power finds expression in Isaiah 40:28: God is not subject to weariness. Because God is conscious of the unlimited extent of His resources nothing is marvelous in His eyes (Zechariah 8:6).

It is chiefly through its forms of manifestation that the distinctive quality of the divine power which renders it omnipotent becomes apparent. The divine power operates not merely in single concrete.

[DeepShadow]

How, then do you address the Riddle of Epicurus, from my first post?

[Super Universe]

Have you ever allowed your child to ride a bicycle? Did they fall and skin their knee? Then by your own logic you are a malevolent parent. Did the child eventually get back on the bike?

Maybe Elpicurus' little four sentence logic test doesn't quite cover every scenario.

What if this evil you fear so much isn't evil at all? It's just ignorance.