Gifts of the spirit:christian (Jesus Christ, testimony, Earth, gospel)

[love]

Originally Posted by Jose Dillano

It is the peace in one's mind and heart. Whether lacking or deprived of life's pleasure or wealth, one knows that even in danger of death one looks forward to God's promise to everlasting life. We acquire faith to gain knowledge of God and his promise to man through Jesus Christ. From faith will we have hope to keep us strong despite what is happening around us, we know we are merely sojourners in this temporary life. We inevitably will face death because life on earth is corrupted by men. Upon our faith and hope will we reinforce with love, to give us a reason to show compassion to our enemies and forgive those who sinned against us. Because we know that God is the first one who loved us for providing us a chance through Christ Jesus and we must do the same as an instrument to show those who don't believe the truth in the Gospel.

Amen. That was all I wanted to say but the message was too short.

[Katzpur]

Baerly, I’m confused about one thing. Do you believe that the gifts of the spirit ceased after the first century because (1) no one remained with the authority to confer these gifts on members of the Church or (2) they were no longer needed? I would agree with you if your answer is that the authority held by the Apostles was lost with their deaths. I would disagree if your answer is that these gifts no longer had a purpose.

They were gifts which were used to help the early church in its infancy (Heb.2:3,4) (2Cor.12:12) (1COr.2:4) (1Cor.13:8).

They (the gifts) were to convince people to believe in Jesus the Christ (John 20:30,31).

There is nothing in any of the verses you quoted to imply that these gifts would not be necessary once the Church was well-established. The need for spiritual is as great, if not greater, to day as it ever has been.

The apostles of the first century were the only ones who could pass the gifts on to other people by the laying on of their hands according to (Acts 6:6 ; 8:18). After the apostles of the first century died, the ability to pass on the gifts to others also died with the apostles of the first century.

I agree 100% that the spiritual gifts were received by the laying on of hands, and that one must have the authority to pass these gifts on in order to do so. I also believe that this authority ceased to exist by about the same time you mentioned.

The gifts (miracles) al ceased sometime around the first century because the revelation of God was completed according to (Jude 3) (2Peter 1:3) (Zech.13:1-4). The bible says in the first century they had (ALL) things pertaining to life and godliness.

I agree that they ceased. I agree, too, that Jesus taught His followers all of the truths they needed. On the other hand, the fact that the early Church at one time had “all things pertaining to life and godliness” is no guarantee that it was able, without the Apostles, to safeguard those things in the face of ever-growing persecution from outside the Church as well as considerable friction within the Church. Paul insisted that without the prophets and apostles, the doctrines Christ taught would not remain pure. He was right. Had the Apostles been able to pass the authority they held on to others, the gifts of the spirit would have never ceased to exist.

The apostles of the first century received (ALL) the words by the Holy Spirit that Jesus spoke to them while he was upon the earth according to (John 14:26 ; 16:13). If the apostles received all the words Jesus said, there is no use in waiting for more revelation to come from Jesus because as the bible says, he gave all to the apostles of the first century. ( ALL) means there is no more to be had.

Roger Williams, pastor of the oldest Baptist Church in America, understood the ramifications of the lack of authority, but did not dismiss the absence of the spiritual gifts as unnecessary. He said, “[There is] no regularly constituted church of Christ on earth, no any person authorized to administer any church ordinance, nor can there be until new apostles are sent by the great head of the Church…”

[Baerly]

Katzpur, The gifts ceased in or around the 1st century because they were no longer needed and the only way for the gifts to be passed on the others was by the laying on of the apostles hands. So the answere is both.

It is not a matter of you agreeing with me. we need to agree with the bible (1Peter 4:11) (1Cor.1:10)..When we agree with the bible we will be speaking the same thing.We will be living by the same rule (phil.3:16).

(1Cor.13:8) says the gifts(s) plural will cease when that which is perfect has come. The perfect is refering to the complete revelation of the word of God. (2Peter 1:3) tells us that we had (all we needed) pertaining to life and godliness in the first century. That means the revelation was completed.

Notice what (1Cor.13:8) says, Prophecies shall FAIL,tongues shall cease, Knowledge shall vanish away. Now, Katzpur if that is not telling it like it is I do not know what would be. It obviously says exactly what you said it does not say. The Gifts shall fail,cease,vanish away. It could not have been said any clearer.

I hope we can talk about his more sometime.

Here are a few lessons I hope you will read and consider.

Are There Modern-Day Apostles?
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2279

1. Modern-Day Miracles, Tongue-Speaking, and Holy Spirit Baptism: A... URL: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2569
Date: 04 Apr 2007
Excerpt: and by manifold powers and by gifts of the holy spirit hebrews 2 3 4... 2. Modern-Day Miracles, Tongue-Speaking, and Holy Spirit Baptism: A Refutation URL: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2572
Date: 04 Apr 2007
Excerpt: and by manifold powers and by gifts of the holy spirit hebrews 2 3 4... Baerly

[Baerly]

Katzpur - I agree 100% that the spiritual gifts were received by the laying on of hands, and that one must have the authority to pass these gifts on in order to do so. I also believe that this authority ceased to exist by about the same time you mentioned.

Baerly -So you agree the gifts ceased and the authority to pass on the gifts ceased.That does not leave any room for the gifts to exist then. think about it.

Katzpur - I agree that they ceased. I agree, too, that Jesus taught His followers all of the truths they needed. On the other hand, the fact that the early Church at one time had “all things pertaining to life and godliness” is no guarantee that it was able, without the Apostles, to safeguard those things in the face of ever-growing persecution from outside the Church as well as considerable friction within the Church. Paul insisted that without the prophets and apostles, the doctrines Christ taught would not remain pure. He was right. Had the Apostles been able to pass the authority they held on to others, the gifts of the spirit would have never ceased to exist.

Baerly - Even while they had the gifts people were leaving the faith. Notice what we read in (John 6:66). Many disciples walked with Jesus no more. They had seen the miracles Jesus done and still left Jesus. People was teaching false doctrine even while they had the gifts. The gifts were no guarantee that people were going to believe. And if they did believe the gifts were no guarantee that everyone would remain faithful to Jesus. But those with good and honest hearts would hear,obey and be faithful (Luke 8:15). Which are you?

The POWER is in the word of God (Rom.1:16). We are called by the gospel (2Thess.2:14). The pure word of God has all the power needed to convert the soul if the person has a good and honest heart (Luke 8:15).

Here is what the Lord said about his words.
Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mark 13:31
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Luke 21:33
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Sounds like we need not worry about the word of God losing its power.We just need to heed the word and obey it wholeheartedly (Heb.5:8,9). The above passages sounds like a pretty good guarantee to me from Jesus (John 14:26 ; 16:13). How about you?

Katzpur -Roger Williams, pastor of the oldest Baptist Church in America, understood the ramifications of the lack of authority, but did not dismiss the absence of the spiritual gifts as unnecessary. He said, “[There is] no regularly constituted church of Christ on earth, no any person authorized to administer any church ordinance, nor can there be until new apostles are sent by the great head of the Church…

Baerly - Well, I would disagree that Roger Williams understands the ramifications of the lack of authority. Ask him if he can find the Baptist church in the New Testament anywhere? The bride of Christ (the church) should wear his (Christ) name. Doesn't the bride wear the name of the husband when two people get marriued? Ask him if water baptism is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) (Acts 22:16)? He will say that water baptism has nothing to do with the remission of sins most likely, and that sins are washed away before water baptism. That is clearly contrary to what the bible teaches. I could go on and on about many other things the Baptist church is teaching which is contrary to what the Lord taught, but this will do for now.

Think about this, the bible says BRETHREN mark those who cause division among you (Rom.16:17,18). (1Cor.5:5-13) tells the BRETHREN to deliver the erring brother to Satan. (2Thess.3:6,14,15) tells the BRETHREN to withdraw from those who walk disorderly and have no company with them.

Doesn't that sound like Jesus wanted church members then and now to uphold the ordinances we find within the bible? I would say so and so does the bible. And we can go through many more if you want to do so.

My question to you is, are you going to listen to someone (Roger Williams) who will not adhere to the words of Jesus on these other subjects?

If Roger Williams wants to debate these bible subjects and others I am sure we can arrange such a debate.

Baerly