Christians: Why death (ritual, Earth, paradise, Eden, evolve)

[*Paul*]

What is your guys position on why we die? Do you agree that in our original state in Eden we were not created to die? Did death enter the creation through one mans (Adams) transgression as Paul declares?

[Seraphiel]

Die-ing is the spirit leaving the body and going over to the other side/dimension. Our spirits can't die, it's our body that stops functioning properly so it can't sustain the energy/spirit within.

[Booko]

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[SoyLeche]

Originally Posted by *Paul*

What is your guys position on why we die? Do you agree that in our original state in Eden we were not created to die? Did death enter the creation through one mans (Adams) transgression as Paul declares?

Adam and Eve were created in a state in which they would not have died. We also believe, however, that they would not have had children in that state (whether or not they could have is debatable, but most LDS are in agreement that they wouldn't have. See http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/2 )

Basically, we believe that there are 3 stages (or "estates")to our existence. Premortal, mortal, immortal. What we do in the first estate effects to a certain extent what happens in the second, and so forth (for example, Lucifer and those who followed him did not keep their first estate, and as such will not be given the opportunity to be mortal, and by extention, immortal). For this to work, the second estate needs to have some sort of end - death. We believe that this was always part of God's plan. It did require Adam to transgress, however. I'm not entirely sure why. Read the chapter I linked to, it might help you understand.

[*Paul*]

[quote]

Originally Posted by SoyLeche

Adam and Eve were created in a state in which they would not have died. See http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/2 )

I will read that soon.

Basically, we believe that there are 3 stages (or "estates")to our existence. Premortal, mortal, immortal. What we do in the first estate effects to a certain extent what happens in the second, and so forth (for example, Lucifer and those who followed him did not keep their first estate, and as such will not be given the opportunity to be mortal, and by extention, immortal).

I see though i think estate in my mind means position rather than existence but i'll have to look at it's biblical usage to come to a firm stand point on that. Very interesting though.

For this to work, the second estate needs to have some sort of end - death. We believe that this was always part of God's plan. It did require Adam to transgress, however. I'm not entirely sure why.

So death entered because of Adams transgression as Paul calls it. But to say it is a part of Gods plan would surely mean it wasn't a transgression but acting in accordance with Gods will, therefore obedience.
Another conflict that arises in my mind is that through Adams sin or however you may define it not only death entered in the world but suffering.
What led me to the question though is this:

2 We believe that men will be apunished for their bown sins, and not for Adam’s ctransgression.

But what you have said has raised further questions for me as I truly did not know your stand on this matter.
Surely every baby that dies dies because death entered into the world through adams sin, though we do not say that the baby is punished for adams sin it is a consequence of it, and that it is not according to Gods because in the New Heavens and the New earth there will be no more death or tears, this is the place where Gods will is being done.

[XAAX]

Originally Posted by *Paul*

What is your guys position on why we die?

The only constant thing in the Universe is energy. All physical matter is ever changing. Our spirit is constant (as it appears to the physical realm), though our body evolves around it. It is the through the limited understanding of truth, that we see death as an end. I see it more as us shedding a physical shell and evolving...Just as a snake sheds its skin so that it can grow...The energy that is our spirits are as ancient as the Universe itself. This does not mean that we as spiritual beings are ancient. Your spiritual age depends on where you are in your spiritual growth...

[Polaris]

Originally Posted by *Paul*

So death entered because of Adams transgression as Paul calls it. But to say it is a part of Gods plan would surely mean it wasn't a transgression but acting in accordance with Gods will, therefore obedience.

It was part of God's plan because God knew that it would happen. God gave the command to not partake of the forbidden fruit. Adam and Eve did, and in doing so transgressed the law God gave them. It would only be obedience if God had commanded them to partake of the fruit.

God knew that Adam and Eve would partake of the fruit and bring about the consequences of death and sin. That is why Jesus Christ was prepared from the foundation of the world to be our Savior over both death and sin.

Originally Posted by *Paul*

Another conflict that arises in my mind is that through Adams sin or however you may define it not only death entered in the world but suffering.

So what's your conflict here?

Originally Posted by *Paul*

Surely every baby that dies dies because death entered into the world through adams sin,

True.

Originally Posted by *Paul*

though we do not say that the baby is punished for adams sin it is a consequence of it,

Correct. Death is not necessarily a punishment; it's a necessary step in our eternal progression.

[SoyLeche]

Originally Posted by *Paul*

Surely every baby that dies dies because death entered into the world through adams sin, though we do not say that the baby is punished for adams sin it is a consequence of it, and that it is not according to Gods because in the New Heavens and the New earth there will be no more death or tears, this is the place where Gods will is being done.

I do not consider death to be a punishment. Like I said, death marks an end to the 2nd estate (actually - that end is probably at the ressurection, not at death - I'll have to think about that one). Death is a consequence of Adam's transgression, but is not a punishment for it. I believe that death was always a part of God's plan.

The "New Heavens" and "New Earth" are a part of the 3rd estate (immortality) - and as such, there will be no death.

[*Paul*]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Polaris

It was part of God's plan because God knew that it would happen.

Does knowing something will happen make it a part of the plan, that is like what the calvinists say, foreknowledge = causation. (when the word equals prognosis)

God gave the command to not partake of the forbidden fruit. Adam and Eve did, and in doing so transgressed the law God gave them. It would only be obedience if God had commanded them to partake of the fruit.

I know and i'm not trying to debate you but understand your position on this. But if God wanted them to take the fruit that He commanded them not to take then there is some kind of deliberate deception on Gods part. Its as though you are saying that God said one thing but in His heart planned that they would do the opposite. You gotta help me understand this you guys this just isn't clicking in my mind how you see no conflict with Gods nature here.

God knew that Adam and Eve would partake of the fruit and bring about the consequences of death and sin. That is why Jesus Christ was prepared from the foundation of the world to be our Savior over both death and sin.

Not only knew it but planned it though. I agree that that is why Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the World, because God knew what we would do. I can't accept though that God planned for it to happen. You believe that God doesn't lie don't you? That He tells the truth? That He created us to have perfect fellowship with Him? Then why plan something that would seperate us from Him?

So what's your conflict here?

My conflict is that everything in my soul cries out that suffering is not something God planned for us, the first creation was made and declared good in it was no suffering, the new creation will be likewise the same, in those acts of God we can see what He wants for us and what He will give us, His nature is revealed in His creation.
AsI said I 'm truly not after a debate here but i've become confused by the answers here and a little perplexed.

Correct. Death is not necessarily a punishment; it's a necessary step in our eternal progression.

No but it is a consequence of breaking Gods command and therefore His will, surely His will does not contradict what He commands? One the one hand you have Him saying don't eat of the fruit adam, and yet on the other He planned that they would therefore it is His will that they did.