Faith, Repentance, Baptism, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost (Jesus Christ, ritual)

[Katzpur]

I know that some Christians believe that baptism is an act of obedience by a person who has been saved. I know other Christians baptize their babies within days of their birth. Some Christians don't see either repentance or baptism as necessary at all. Some believe that when a person is saved, he is given the Gift of the Holy Ghost. How do you see these four elements interacting with one another? In what order do you see them as taking place or does it matter? Are all of them part of the gospel of Jesus Christ and necessary for salvation?

My thoughts after I hear yours...

[dawny0826]

I believe that they are all intertwined.

I believe that we first receive the Word...we're convicted by what we hear and/or read from the Word of God.

With a sincere heart, we must repent of our shortcomings and desire for Christ to change us. And when we do so...Christ forgives and washes us clean of our sins. We then receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, as He promised. We die, commit to abandon our flesh and then are renewed in the Holy Spirit. THIS is the spiritual baptism...the baptism that is necessary.

When we've accepted Christ, we are a new being...we have the Holy Spirit to guide and direct us. And water baptism is the symbol of the rebirth...a symbol of being washed clean not by water...but by the blood of the Lamb.

[writer]

's simply to turn to God, to turn your heart.
One couldn't not do that and bcum Christian

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by dawny0826

I believe that they are all intertwined.

I believe that we first receive the Word...we're convicted by what we hear and/or read from the Word of God.

With a sincere heart, we must repent of our shortcomings and desire for Christ to change us. And when we do so...Christ forgives and washes us clean of our sins. We then receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, as He promised. We die, commit to abandon our flesh and then are renewed in the Holy Spirit. THIS is the spiritual baptism...the baptism that is necessary.

When we've accepted Christ, we are a new being...we have the Holy Spirit to guide and direct us. And water baptism is the symbol of the rebirth...a symbol of being washed clean not by water...but by the blood of the Lamb.

Thanks for responding, Dawn. I'd pretty much go along with that we must first receive a conviction that Jesus Christ is our Savior, and that repentance of our sins would be the logical second step.

At this point, we have a bit of a difference of opinion. I believe that baptism by water should follow the repentace process, and that when we are baptized, we enter into a covenant relationship with Jesus Christ. According to the terms of that covenant, we agree to take upon ourselves His holy name. We acknowledge His power to redeem us, and make us fit to enter His Father's kingdom, and we promise Him that we will strive every day to obey His commandments and repent again whenever we fall short. In return, He promises that His atoning sacrifice will cleanse us of our sins. He promises to bear the burden of our guilt. So I see baptism by water as being even more important for us than it was for Christ, who was baptized only "to fulfill all righteousness" (i.e. to be obedient to all of His Father's commandments) and not because He needed to be forgiven for any sins.

Finally, I believe that we must need to have the Gift of the Holy Ghost conferred upon us by the laying on of hands, as described in Acts 8:13-17. This is what I believe the scriptures are referring to when they say we need to be born of water and of the Spirit.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by writer

's simply to turn to God, to turn your heart.
One couldn't not do that and bcum Christian

Thanks, writer. Would you be so kind as to tie this statement to my OP?

[dawny0826]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Thanks for responding, Dawn. I'd pretty much go along with that we must first receive a conviction that Jesus Christ is our Savior, and that repentance of our sins would be the logical second step.

At this point, we have a bit of a difference of opinion. I believe that baptism by water should follow the repentace process, and that when we are baptized, we enter into a covenant relationship with Jesus Christ. According to the terms of that covenant, we agree to take upon ourselves His holy name. We acknowledge His power to redeem us, and make us fit to enter His Father's kingdom, and we promise Him that we will strive every day to obey His commandments and repent again whenever we fall short. In return, He promises that His atoning sacrifice will cleanse us of our sins. He promises to bear the burden of our guilt. So I see baptism by water as being even more important for us than it was for Christ, who was baptized only "to fulfill all righteousness" (i.e. to be obedient to all of His Father's commandments) and not because He needed to be forgiven for any sins.

Finally, I believe that we must need to have the Gift of the Holy Ghost conferred upon us by the laying on of hands, as described in Acts 8:13-17. This is what I believe the scriptures are referring to when they say we need to be born of water and of the Spirit.

Mind you, you're never going to hear from me that we shouldn't be baptized after accepting Christ. I agree. But I view this as an act of obedience as well as a symbolic act of our sins being washed clean.

We're saved the moment we accept salvation. Christ Jesus paid the price. Our salvation has been paid for. It's a done deal. According to the Word, we need only to come to Christ, broken, with a repenting heart and accept His Grace. The moment we accept Christ Jesus is the moment that we've received Christ. The spiritual baptism...receiving the Holy Spirit happens THEN.

Even John the Baptist, spoke of Christ baptising us not in WATER but in FIRE. This fire isn't a physical baptism but a spiritual change that takes place when one is reborn. One is reborn when they accept Christ into their life...repent...lay their life down and commit to pick up their own cross and follow Christ Jesus.

I had hands laid on me when I received the Holy Spirit but the Holy Spirit was already promised to me and would have come to me if no one had laid a single hand on me because Jesus Christ PROMISED that He would come to me. He didn't promise that the Holy Spirit would come to me if someone laid hands on me. The promise was that I wouldn't be left alone...that the Holy Spirit would come to me.

I don't discount the preciousness of water baptism but I don't think it's necessary to enter the kingdom of heaven. Everlasting life is obtained, according to the Bible, by faith in Jesus Christ. When one has faith in Jesus Christ...they live according to His will, not their own, they repent for their shortcomings and love and share the gospel.

The gospel is the good news of who? Jesus Christ. To me, it's very simple. When one takes Christ Jesus into their heart...they are saved.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by dawny0826

Mind you, you're never going to hear from me that we shouldn't be baptized after accepting Christ. I agree. But I view this as an act of obedience as well as a symbolic act of our sins being washed clean.

Why do you believe Jesus was baptized by water, Dawn? I'm just curious as to why you think He was so determined to set this example for us. I mean He very insistent that John baptize Him with water, and then kept telling people to be baptized. I'm not trying to be argumentative. It's just that I've heard so many people say this, and I don't understand the rationale behind it.

We're saved the moment we accept salvation. Christ Jesus paid the price. Our salvation has been paid for. It's a done deal. According to the Word, we need only to come to Christ, broken, with a repenting heart and accept His Grace.

I know a lot of Christians believe this. Can you give me some passages that show where it happens at that moment? (Don't get me wrong; I totally believe our salvation has been paid for by His atonement. I just haven't been able to see anywhere in the scriptures where salvation is spoken of in the present tense. If you could show me where we're told that this is how it happens, it would mean a lot more to me than hearing it from someone who felt it necessary to add, "And by the way, you're going to Hell." )

Even John the Baptist, spoke of Christ baptising us not in WATER but in FIRE. This fire isn't a physical baptism but a spiritual change that takes place when one is reborn. One is reborn when they accept Christ into their life...repent...lay their life down and commit to pick up their own cross and follow Christ Jesus.

I had hands laid on me when I received the Holy Spirit but the Holy Spirit was already promised to me and would have come to me if no one had laid a single hand on me because Jesus Christ PROMISED that He would come to me. He didn't promise that the Holy Spirit would come to me if someone laid hands on me. The promise was that I wouldn't be left alone...that the Holy Spirit would come to me.

I agree that the Holy Ghost can testify to anyone, whether by the laying on of hands or not. But I see the "Gift of the Holy Ghost", received by the laying on of hands as being something a little different. What, if anything, do you see the laying on of hands to confer this gift as meaning?

I don't discount the preciousness of water baptism but I don't think it's necessary to enter the kingdom of heaven. Everlasting life is obtained, according to the Bible, by faith in Jesus Christ. When one has faith in Jesus Christ...they live according to His will, not their own, they repent for their shortcomings and love and share the gospel.

So, when you read, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God," you are obviously interpreting it differently than I am. There are several places in the scriptures where the phrase, "born of a woman" is used. Are you saying that is synonomous with being "born of water," or are you just saying that being "born of water" has nothing to do with water baptism?

The gospel is the good news of who? Jesus Christ. To me, it's very simple. When one takes Christ Jesus into their heart...they are saved.

In very general terms, I would have to agree with you.

[dawny0826]

Why do you believe Jesus was baptized by water, Dawn? I'm just curious as to why you think He was so determined to set this example for us. I mean He very insistent that John baptize Him with water, and then kept telling people to be baptized. I'm not trying to be argumentative. It's just that I've heard so many people say this, and I don't understand the rationale behind it.

I believe that Jesus' baptism was symbolic of new life...as our baptisms are symbolic of new life.

Rebirth is spiritual.

I know a lot of Christians believe this. Can you give me some passages that show where it happens at that moment? (Don't get me wrong; I totally believe our salvation has been paid for by His atonement. I just haven't been able to see anywhere in the scriptures where salvation is spoken of in the present tense. If you could show me where we're told that this is how it happens, it would mean a lot more to me than hearing it from someone who felt it necessary to add, "And by the way, you're going to Hell." )

I don't understand why it makes a difference.

"We then, as workers together with Him also plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain. For He says: In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you. Behold, now is the accpeted time: behold, now is the day of salvation." 2 Cor. 6:2

"Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation." 2 Cor. 12:18

When in Christ, I am reconciled with God. NOW. In the present.

"For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16

I BELIEVE...right now...in the present tense. I've been told by Christ Jesus, Himself that if I believe in Him...that if my faith is in HIM...I have everlasting life. I accept this on faith NOW. Present tense.

"He who BELIEVES is not condemned but he who does not believe is condemned already because he has not believedin the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18

Present tense.

I agree that the Holy Ghost can testify to anyone, whether by the laying on of hands or not. But I see the "Gift of the Holy Ghost", received by the laying on of hands as being something a little different. What, if anything, do you see the laying on of hands to confer this gift as meaning?

I believe that it is a powerful and meaningful gesture but it's not necessary to receive the Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ promised us the Holy Spirit and He didn't say that we had to have hands layed on us to receive.

This is what Jesus Christ said:

"If you love Me, keep my commandments, And I will pray the Father and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever, the Spirit of truth whom the world cannot receive because it neither sess Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans. I will come to you." John 14:15-18

When I called upon Jesus Christ and asked Him to enter my heart...He did, as He promised. And I received Him...I received the Holy Spirit. Were hands laid on me? Yes. But had hands not been laid on my, My Saviour STILL would have come to me.

So, when you read, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God," you are obviously interpreting it differently than I am. There are several places in the scriptures where the phrase, "born of a woman" is used. Are you saying that is synonomous with being "born of water," or are you just saying that being "born of water" has nothing to do with water baptism?

I believe that "born of water" can very well be synonmous to to "born of a woman".

I'm simply stating that water baptism isn't necessary for salvation.

Jesus Christ is it.

Based upon your belief...if one isn't baptized in water, they won't enter heaven.

So, I ask you, being of a faith that speaks out quite a bit against those (like myself ) who believe it's either heaven or hell...no in between...no second chances.

What of the man who accepts Christ sincerely on his death bed? What of the person who loves Christ with all of their heart but died before they made it to their baptism?

I don't the water baptism makes a bit of difference. The "saving factor"...the newbirth occured the moment you ask Him to enter your heart and laid your life down at His feet.