Christians: Biblical Errancy vs. Inerrancy (translation, hell, doctrine, zealous)

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by Baerly

I truly believe The apostles wrote down the very words Jesus spoke to them while he was on the earth (John 14:26 ; 16:13). They (the apostles) got it completely right because the Holy Spirit was guiding them as they wrote every word.God doesn't make mistakes. I also believe the books which were put together were the ones God wanted together. Those books were once delivered (Jude 3). Those books also contained everything pertaining to life and godliness(2Peter 1:3). I believe it was all done by the providence of God.

The problems began once people started making different translations thinking they would make it easier for us to understand. If a person uses the American Standard Version one is pretty safe.The New King James is pretty good. I personally use the King James Version,not because it is any better,probably because I have many notes in my bible and it takes time to transfer them each time I change bibles. After that many are just MIStranslations. This is where most of the problems enter on the scene. All the different Mistranslations.

I will have to go with the bible which we have today in English has some errors.They are mostly in spelling and does noting to change its doctrine.That is because people today are not led by the Holy Spirit like the apostles were when they wrote the letters in the first century. in love Baerly

the problem here is that we don't know that it was the apostles who wrote it down. There is no clear evidence supporting apostolic authorship. and Jesus was ascended by the time Paul wrote.

[angellous_evangellous]

Originally Posted by sojourner

There is no clear evidence supporting apostolic authorship.

Earle Ellis thinks that there is - see Paul's Use of the Old Testament and The Making of the New Testament Documents.

[Baerly]

Originally Posted by sojourner

the problem here is that we don't know that it was the apostles who wrote it down. There is no clear evidence supporting apostolic authorship. and Jesus was ascended by the time Paul wrote.

If you believe the scriptures you would have your answere. The bible says the Holy Spirit Guided the apostles to remember every word Jesus said to them while he was on this earth (John 14:26) (John 16:13). This should be your guide as to what happened. One must have faith in the word of God (Heb.11:6). That is our evidence.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Baerly

If you believe the scriptures you would have your answere. The bible says the Holy Spirit Guided the apostles to remember every word Jesus said to them while he was on this earth (John 14:26) (John 16:13). This should be your guide as to what happened. One must have faith in the word of God (Heb.11:6). That is our evidence.

Well, if we had the original documents as penned by the apostles, we'd be in good shape then. Unfortunately, we don't. We don't even know what happened to some of Paul's epistles.

To be perfectly honest, it sounds to me like you're an ostrich with his head in the sand. Having faith is one thing, but being totally oblivious to the reality of the situation is another.

[Baerly]

Fulfilled Prophecies Of Christ - What Are The Odds?

December 30, 2004 by Mike Riley - Mike Riley's Blog /thepreachersfiles.com
In Deuteronomy 18:21-22, the text reads, "And you may say in your heart, 'How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?' When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken." (NASV).
In the above passage of scripture, we can understand the simple criteria for determining the validity of a prophet and the trustworthiness of his message originating from the mouth of the Lord. Through a study of the scriptures, we learn that prophecies of true prophets always came to pass. There are over three hundred prophecies concerning the Messiah within the pages of scripture that have come to pass. We might ask ourselves, "what are the odds of even a small portion of these Messianic prophecies ever coming to pass (or being fulfilled)?"
Research On Mathematical Probabilities
In 1963, Peter Stoner, a science professor at Westmont College in Santa Barbara, California, did extensive research on the mathematical probabilities (odds) of various numbers of Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah applying to Jesus of Nazareth (Peter Stoner, Science Speaks: Scientific Proof of the Accuracy of Prophecy and the Bible, Chicago, IL: Moody Press, 1963, pg. 101-109). Upon completion of his research, he submitted his figures for review to a Committee of the American Scientific Affiliation. Upon examination, they verified that his calculations were dependable and accurate in regard to the scientific material presented. What kind of numbers did Professor Stoner's research produce? The odds of one man (Jesus or any man) fulfilling only "eight" Old Testament Messianic prophecies was one chance out of one with "seventeen" zeros after it (100,000,000,000,000,000)! To try to comprehend a number like that, Professor Stoner used the following illustration:
Cover the entire state of Texas two feet deep in silver dollars. Choose and "mark" one silver dollar and drop it from an airplane flying somewhere over Texas. Thoroughly "stir" the silver dollars all over the state. Blindfold a person and let them travel anywhere in the state, stopping only "once" at a spot of his choice to dig into the two feet of silver dollars and pick out the "marked" one. The chance of a person being able to do that in "one" try is the same chance as one man fulfilling only "eight" Messianic prophecies. Professor Stoner concluded, "The fulfillment of these eight prophecies alone proves that God inspired the writing of those prophecies to a definiteness which lacks only one chance in ten to the seventeenth power of being absolute."
Increasing The Messianic Prophecies
If we were to increase the fulfillment of Messianic prophecies to only forty-eight (still far short of the total prophecies Jesus actually fulfilled), the chances of one man's fulfilling all forty-eight prophecies "jumps" to an incredible one in ten to the one hundred and fifty-seventh power. This would be "one" chance out of one with one hundred and fifty-seven zeros after it! Emil Borel, a leading authority in probability theory and author of the book, "Probabilities and Life" (1962, Dover, translated from the original, Les Probabilite et la Vie, 1943, Presses Universitaire de France), states that once we go beyond one chance in ten to the "fiftieth" power (one with fifty zeros after it), the probabilities are so small that it is impossible for one to even "think" they will ever occur.
Conclusion
Brethren, in reference to the fulfilled prophecies of Christ, think of the mind-boggling numbers presented above as only one evidence of God's existence, His awesome power and His authorship of the inspired scriptures (2 Timothy 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:20-21). There are obviously many other "evidences" that prove (beyond a reasonable doubt) God's existence (Psalm 41:13; Psalm 106:48; Romans 1:19-20) and power (Jeremiah 32:17; Isaiah 40:12-31). (Psalm 10:4; Psalm 14:1; Psalm 53:1).

[Baerly]

Chester Estes: The Bible, A Divine Book The Bible, A Divine Book Chester Estes The Bible is either a divine book or it is not. It can have only one of four sources. It came from God, good...
URL: http://www.gospelpreceptor.com/EstesC01.htm - 8k - 30 Apr 2005 Chester

[angellous_evangellous]

This statement:

Originally Posted by Baerly

What kind of numbers did Professor Stoner's research produce? The odds of one man (Jesus or any man) fulfilling only "eight" Old Testament Messianic prophecies was one chance out of one with "seventeen" zeros after it (100,000,000,000,000,000)! To try to comprehend a number like that...

combined with this statement:

Emil Borel, a leading authority in probability theory and author of the book, "Probabilities and Life" (1962, Dover, translated from the original, Les Probabilite et la Vie, 1943, Presses Universitaire de France), states that once we go beyond one chance in ten to the "fiftieth" power (one with fifty zeros after it), the probabilities are so small that it is impossible for one to even "think" they will ever occur.

So a rationally thinking person would have to assume that the likelihood of the fulfillment of even some of the Old Testament prophesies could be fulfilled by any one man - "Jesus or any man" - is so unlikely that it is impossible for one to even "think" it would ever occur.

That's what the atheists have said all along... and yet you call them wicked.

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by Baerly

If you believe the scriptures you would have your answere. The bible says the Holy Spirit Guided the apostles to remember every word Jesus said to them while he was on this earth (John 14:26) (John 16:13). This should be your guide as to what happened. One must have faith in the word of God (Heb.11:6). That is our evidence.

I don't have a problem with what the Bible says. I have a problem with apostolic authorship of the gospels. Maybe the apostles (to whom Jesus was speaking in John) remembered what he said. But since I think it unlikely that the apostles were the authors of the gospels, your point is moot. The remembrance of the apostles would have been handed down through Holy Tradition, which you appear to dismiss. Paul and Jesus never met while Jesus was on earth. Again, your point is moot.

[Baerly]

Originally Posted by sojourner

I don't have a problem with what the Bible says. I have a problem with apostolic authorship of the gospels. Maybe the apostles (to whom Jesus was speaking in John) remembered what he said. But since I think it unlikely that the apostles were the authors of the gospels, your point is moot. The remembrance of the apostles would have been handed down through Holy Tradition, which you appear to dismiss. Paul and Jesus never met while Jesus was on earth. Again, your point is moot.

It was the Holy Spirit who guided them both to write all things Jesus said to the apostlses while upon the earth (John 14:26 ; 16:13).

31. But these were written that ye might believe... (John 20 :30,31).

If you do not accept what is written in this book (the bible),what will convince you?

[Baerly]

Originally Posted by angellous_evangellous

This statement:



combined with this statement:



So a rationally thinking person would have to assume that the likelihood of the fulfillment of even some of the Old Testament prophesies could be fulfilled by any one man - "Jesus or any man" - is so unlikely that it is impossible for one to even "think" it would ever occur.

That's what the atheists have said all along... and yet you call them wicked.

I think you have misunderstood the article. The point was if it did happen this is what the odds would be. Not only did it all happen, but much much more happened and it was all precise. It can all be traced back to the O.T. --