Christians and Atheists only: the christian atheist (Jesus Christ, ritual, Earth)

[Karl R]

A journalism professor, Robert Jensen, recently created a huge controversy by publishing the following article:

Originally Posted by Robert Jensen

Why I am a Christian (Sort Of...)
I don't believe in God.

I don't believe Jesus Christ was the son of a God that I don't believe in, nor do I believe Jesus rose from the dead to ascend to a heaven that I don't believe exists.

Given these positions, this year I did the only thing that seemed sensible: I formally joined a Christian church.

Standing before the congregation of St. Andrew's Presbyterian Church in Austin, TX, I affirmed that I (1) endorsed the core principles in Christ's teaching; (2) intended to work to deepen my understanding and practice of the universal love at the heart of those principles; and (3) pledged to be a responsible member of the church and the larger community.

So, I'm a Christian, sort of. A secular Christian. A Christian atheist, perhaps. But, in a deep sense, I would argue, a real Christian.

The rest of Robert Jensen's article can be found here:
http://www.counterpunch.org/jensen03072006.html

This action has sparked a huge controversy among conservative christians and atheists alike.

Jim Rigby, the pastor of St. Andrew's Presbyterian Church in Austin elaborates on some of the controversy.

Originally Posted by Jim Rigby

I wasn't surprised when many were unhappy about the decision of St. Andrew's Presbyterian Church in Austin, TX, where I am the pastor, to let a self-professed atheist become a member. But the intensity and tone of the condemnations were surprising; this wave of mail feels different, more desperate, like people have been backed against a wall.

Ironically, the new member, a longtime leftist political activist and professor in Austin, has been getting mail from fellow atheists skeptical of his decision.

"How can you do this?" both sides are asking. To me they ask, "How can you let someone join the church who cannot affirm the divinity of Christ? Does nothing matter to you liberals?" To Robert Jensen they ask, "How, as an atheist, can you surrender your mind to a superstitious institution that birthed the inquisition and the crusades?"

Neither the church nor Jensen views his membership as surrendering anything, but instead as an attempt to build connections. Such efforts are crucial in a world where there seems not to be a lot of wood to build the bridges we need. And the shame is, while we fight among ourselves, the world is burning.

The rest of Jim Rigby's article can be found here:
http://www.staopen.com/rigby_jensen.shtml

This debate is open to all christians and atheists.

How do you feel about Robert Jensen's decision to join a church, and Jim Rigby's decision to welcome him into his congregation?

[Mike182]

if he follows the very basic message of jesus christ, he has every right to call himself a christian!

so the question becomes, is he following the basic message of jesus christ? jesus says "love God, and love your neighbor" and i believe that is the very basic message of jesus christ - if you do not follow that, in my oppinion, you are not a christian.

[Snowbear]

Originally Posted by Karl R

How do you feel about Robert Jensen's decision to join a church, and Jim Rigby's decision to welcome him into his congregation?

Cool

I think his discision is between himself and God... it's not my place, the pastor's place, the world's place or anyone's but God's to judge Mr Jensen's motives.

[Squirt]

Originally Posted by Mike182

if he follows the very basic message of jesus christ, he has every right to call himself a christian!

Well, as a Christian who gets told almost daily that I'm not a legitimate, real, true Christian, I would also hesitate to say such a thing to somebody else. But it does seem to me that being a Christian involves more than simply recognizing that Jesus Christ was a good person who taught us to love one another. Virtually all of the world's great religions teach something very much akin to the "Golden Rule." While it seems to me that it would be difficult for someone to call himself a Christian if he doesn't at least attempt to follow Christ's example, there are many other "good" people one could choose to emulate if the point was simply to go along with Christ's message of love. I honestly don't understand why someone would even want to call himself a Christian if He thought Jesus was nothing more than a good role model. But, as I said before, if Robert Jensen wants to call himself a Christian, it's up to him.

[Augustine]

Originally Posted by Mike182

if he follows the very basic message of jesus christ, he has every right to call himself a christian!

so the question becomes, is he following the basic message of jesus christ? jesus says "love God, and love your neighbor" and i believe that is the very basic message of jesus christ - if you do not follow that, in my oppinion, you are not a christian.

If you follow this line of reasoning then a Buddhist could call himself a Christian as long as he espoused teachings Christ. Heck, most people feel that doing good for one's neighbor is a good act that should be done. If this is the core requirement for being a Christian, then any person who does good on the face of the earth is a Christian.

I would contend that Christ's message was one of His own sacrifice on behalf the sins of the many. You are Christian if you belief this to be true. To do otherwise would be to deny the true message of Jesus Christ.

[sojourner]

I say, "Good for him!" That kind of action flies in the face of every self-righteous, holier-than-thou attitude all-too present in today's American Protestantism. He affirms Christ's teachings without subscribing to all the surplus, contrived bull crap present in so many of our "belief systems." (Isn't that what Jesus did to Pharisaical Judaism???)

This sort of goes along with AE's thread about the conservative agenda. Belief isn't a "system," it's belief. If this person believes in the power and goodness of love, GREAT!

[Karl R]

I applaud Robert Jensen's decision to follow Jesus' teachings.

I applaud Jensen's decision to join a church in order to pursue this desire.

I applaud Jim Rigby's decision to welcome Robert Jensen into his congregation.

It doesn't bother me that Jensen chooses to call himself a christian. I'm not sure that it's an accurate description, but I'm not sure that it's inaccurate either.

Originally Posted by Squirt

it does seem to me that being a Christian involves more than simply recognizing that Jesus Christ was a good person who taught us to love one another.

I tend to agree with this. Based on my experience, you gain something from belief in god and christ. You gain the power of prayer. You gain spiritual gifts. I suspect that Jensen doesn't share those benefits due to his lack of belief. (If he does, it will really force a change in my worldview ... and probably Jensen's as well.)

It seems to me that Jensen is trying to do the difficult part without having the benefit of some of the tools that would make his task easier.

Despite this, I firmly believe that Jensen (having the desire to help, but lacking the tools) will be far more effective than many christians (who have the tools, but lack the desire to help).

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by Karl R

I applaud Robert Jensen's decision to follow Jesus' teachings.

I applaud Jensen's decision to join a church in order to pursue this desire.

I applaud Jim Rigby's decision to welcome Robert Jensen into his congregation.

It doesn't bother me that Jensen chooses to call himself a christian. I'm not sure that it's an accurate description, but I'm not sure that it's inaccurate either.


I tend to agree with this. Based on my experience, you gain something from belief in god and christ. You gain the power of prayer. You gain spiritual gifts. I suspect that Jensen doesn't share those benefits due to his lack of belief. (If he does, it will really force a change in my worldview ... and probably Jensen's as well.)

It seems to me that Jensen is trying to do the difficult part without having the benefit of some of the tools that would make his task easier.

Despite this, I firmly believe that Jensen (having the desire to help, but lacking the tools) will be far more effective than many christians (who have the tools, but lack the desire to help).

His actions pull us up short, who are all-too-comfortably ensconced in our little definitions, and causes us to question the boundaries we place around Christ's community. That's good.

[Scuba Pete]

Amen Brother Robert!

Jesus indicated that it's not WHAT we believe as much as how we love that makes us his disciple. There will be some surprises on judgement day. Many who thought they were saved will be weeping and many who had no knowledge that they were will be pleasantly surprised.

[Scott1]

Originally Posted by Karl R

How do you feel about Robert Jensen's decision to join a church, and Jim Rigby's decision to welcome him into his congregation?

God bless the both of them!

Mr. Jensen seems to be following his conscience... and while some Protestants don't feel this is "sufficient" for a right relationship with God (or salvation, as logic would follow) I believe that the conscience bears witness to the authority of truth in reference to the supreme Good to which the human person is drawn, and it welcomes the commandments. He might not believe in God, but it seems clear to me that God believes in him.

When he listens to his conscience, the prudent man can hear God speaking.

Scott