The patriarchs and decete (abrahamic debate) (testimony, Moses, Isaiah, prophet)

[Aqualung]

What do you think of the fact that the patriarchs were so deceitful? Jacob was so blessed because he conned his brother out of his birthright and out of his blessing. Abraham was constantly lying about his wife. Does that bother anybody?

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by Aqualung

What do you think of the fact that the patriarchs were so deceitful? Jacob was so blessed because he conned his brother out of his birthright and out of his blessing. Abraham was constantly lying about his wife. Does that bother anybody?

No. It illustrates that common, flawed human beings can (and are) blessed and loved by God. It would bother me if the Biblical "heroes" were all goody-goody people who were much better than any real person is capable of being. The world is a dirty place. It only stands to reason that God would choose the most common of us as exemplars of righteousness.

[Aqualung]

Does it bother you that such prophets as Brigham young were flawed (perhaps racist or other such things) and then do you use that to show that they are not real prophets?

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by Aqualung

Does it bother you that such prophets as Brigham young were flawed (perhaps racist or other such things) and then do you use that to show that they are not real prophets?

Moses had a speech impediment. Isaiah was a man of "unclean lips". Shall I go on? God always seems to use those of us who have the most warts to do God's work. I think Brigham Young was brilliant. Personally, I doubt his status as a prophet, but my doubt doesn't diminish who he was for LDS, and I don't judge either your perceptions or the veracity of his prophetic role for you.

[Aqualung]

Ah, perhaps you. But some people take the imperfections of the LDS prophets to be a huge testament to their fraudulant nature.

Anywho... back to the topic at hand.

[nutshell]

Originally Posted by sojourner

Moses had a speech impediment. Isaiah was a man of "unclean lips". Shall I go on? God always seems to use those of us who have the most warts to do God's work. I think Brigham Young was brilliant. Personally, I doubt his status as a prophet, but my doubt doesn't diminish who he was for LDS, and I don't judge either your perceptions or the veracity of his prophetic role for you.

Nice post. Frubals to you, friend.

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by Aqualung

Ah, perhaps you. But some people take the imperfections of the LDS prophets to be a huge testament to their fraudulant nature.

Anywho... back to the topic at hand.

As I read the Bible, I find that prophets are usually raised up, not dropped down from heaven. It's a testimony to how God surprises and overturns our presuppositions -- God's ways are not our ways. I think, in that sense, not only Joseph Smith, but the entire "remnant" community that made its pilgrimage to Deseret can be seen as a real-life, poetic testimony to how God raises up very common people for God's purposes.

[Aqualung]

Yes, me too.