Could some RC please explain this? (Jesus, moral, mystic, virginity)

[Searcher of Light]

I have been reading about the writings of Josephus, Philo, Papias, and Eusibius. All of them and other secular writers around the time of Jesus and the Apostles refer to Jesus having siblings. There are arguments if they were Mary's children or not, but my question arises nevertheless:

What is so bad about the idea that Mary may not have been a perpetual virgin?

I have never understood the vehemance of defending this point. What is so important about Mary being a perpetual virgin? Would raising children that live holy throughout their lives make her much more holier than not having children at all? Especially if her grandchildren live holy lives as well? A holy family such as this one would have more influence than just one virgin woman wouldnt it?

Could someone explain why Mary is holiest as a childless (exempting Jesus) woman instead of being a mother to a holy family? Origen and Tertullian dont shed much light on just why Mary should be a perpetual virgen. I know the idea has developed over the centuries, but what is so important about her virginity?

[jonny]

Wasn't James Christ's brother? I don't see a problem with Christ having siblings. It never occured to me that Mary was a virgin her entire life. She was married to Joseph wasn't she?

[Bishka]

I agree with Johnny, I know Jesus had step-siblings/half-siblings, but I don't know where I read it.

[Quiddity]

This should do the trick:
The Ever Virginity of Mary

Let me know if you have any other questions.

~Victor

[spacemonkey]

Originally Posted by jonny

Wasn't James Christ's brother? I don't see a problem with Christ having siblings. It never occured to me that Mary was a virgin her entire life. She was married to Joseph wasn't she?

Actually, I belive it was Thomas, the Apostale who doubted Jesus's ressurection (Doubting Thomas), but they both may have been.

[James the Persian]

It's not just RCs that believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary. All Christians outside of the Protestant tradition (i.e. RCs, Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox) believe this. It is a part of Holy Tradition that has been believed by the Church from very early times and was not 'developed over the centuries'. From our point of view, and I can't speak for RCs on this, it is not important to defend this belief. We have not dogmatised it and I very much doubt many Orthodox would argue that it makes the Theotokos holier in some way, but it is part of Holy Tradition and so we continue to believe it. Victor has pointed you to the thread where we recently discussed the issue and hopefully that will answer your questions.

James

[Searcher of Light]

Originally Posted by JamesThePersian

It's not just RCs that believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary. All Christians outside of the Protestant tradition (i.e. RCs, Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox) believe this. It is a part of Holy Tradition that has been believed by the Church from very early times and was not 'developed over the centuries'. From our point of view, and I can't speak for RCs on this, it is not important to defend this belief. We have not dogmatised it and I very much doubt many Orthodox would argue that it makes the Theotokos holier in some way, but it is part of Holy Tradition and so we continue to believe it. Victor has pointed you to the thread where we recently discussed the issue and hopefully that will answer your questions.

James

Very true James. They just dont come to my mind as quickly as RCs do. RCs seems the loudest with their beliefs right now (good for you. someone needs to be loud about morality).

Thanks for the link, Victor. I really need to remember that "hidden" Search function.

The actual evidence for and against Mary's perpetual virginity are pretty much equal. This is apparently up to our choice. Each individual is, afterall, a part of the instituation of the Church. (Acts 2) Really though, now that I think of it, the entire questioning around Mary's sexuality is moot. We cannot know for certain (faith can know but faith is rarely historically certain with details) nor is knowing that important.

[James the Persian]

Originally Posted by Searcher of Light

Very true James. They just dont come to my mind as quickly as RCs do. RCs seems the loudest with their beliefs right now (good for you. someone needs to be loud about morality).

Thanks for the link, Victor. I really need to remember that "hidden" Search function.

The actual evidence for and against Mary's perpetual virginity are pretty much equal. This is apparently up to our choice. Each individual is, afterall, a part of the instituation of the Church. (Acts 2) Really though, now that I think of it, the entire questioning around Mary's sexuality is moot. We cannot know for certain (faith can know but faith is rarely historically certain with details) nor is knowing that important.

I'm Orthodox, not RC, but I think we're just as vocal about our moral position as the RCs. It's just that in the west we are a much smaller minority than RCs are even in predominantly Protestant countries, so we don't often make so much of a noticeable impact.

I would disagree with you that the evidence for and against the perpetual virginity of the Theotokos is equal (there is absolutely no evidence against the belief in the Bible, which is all most Protestants can appeal to, and a small bit of evidence for and, if you accept Holy Tradition, the evidence for the belief is almost overwhelming). I would agree with you, though, that it is not an important point but rather a matter of personal faith.

James

[Searcher of Light]

I'm Orthodox, not RC, but I think we're just as vocal about our moral position as the RCs. It's just that in the west we are a much smaller minority than RCs are even in predominantly Protestant countries, so we don't often make so much of a noticeable impact.

That would explain why the RCs seem more vocal to me than Orthodox or like faiths

[John Eastern]

Sex was something that was considered too base at one time to create anything good, remember woman was cursed by God to bear children. To create God in flesh, the animal instinct had to be ruled out. It is what puts us here, in flesh. Also, God nature comes through a multitude of forms, is not ruled by man. At the core, all nature is sacred. A virgin birth points to the mystical connection between flesh and God consciousness.