Christian: Mary, Mother of God (Jesus Christ, Earth, gospel, grace)

[sojourner]

I did not say that he bestows sinlessness, I said that he bestows "Grace," and that this Grace helps us to be sinless as you said.

I feel this is incorrect theology. Grace does not "help to make us sinless." Grace makes us acceptable to God, in spite of our sinfulness. When the father embraced the prodigal son upon his return home, it didn't negate the fact that the son had been prodigal, and that his state had led him away from the father. But the father only cared that the son had returned -- prodigal or not -- and the father accepted the son, prodigal or not. That's grace.

[writer]

To the contrary: they don't. For instance Matthew, the start of Matthew, focusing on Joseph, records Joseph, the husband of Mary,'s antecedents. Luke's beginning, emphasizing Mary's personal experiences, provides her lineage in Lk 3.
Thnx

[writer]

dear Lord Jesus

[Victor]

Originally Posted by sojourner

I feel this is incorrect theology. Grace does not "help to make us sinless." Grace makes us acceptable to God, in spite of our sinfulness. When the father embraced the prodigal son upon his return home, it didn't negate the fact that the son had been prodigal, and that his state had led him away from the father. But the father only cared that the son had returned -- prodigal or not -- and the father accepted the son, prodigal or not. That's grace.

Yes it does make you acceptable before God. But I think God wants more then just someone being IN Grace. He is literally trying to transform people. How is this done in your estimation?

[athanasius]

The wording of the Phrase "Hail Full of Grace" in Luke 1:28 according to Greek biblical scholars, like Fr Mateo, shows that the Blessed Virgin Mary has been "Perfected in Grace". If someone is perfected in grace then there is no room for sin. Of coarse her sinlessness is implied not only in this verse but also in the content of the whole of sacred scripture.

For example:
In the old testament in the book of Wisdom it says "Wisdom will NOT dwell in a body under the debt of SIN"(Wis 1:4)

Jesus Christ is "wisdom personified" as Paul teaches in (1 Cor 1:24)

If regular wisom will not dwell in a body under the debt of sin, then how much more sinless would you have to be to have Jesus(Wisom Personified) literally dwelling in your body for 9 months? Hence Scripture alludes in a implicit way to the Imaculate Conception of our Lady.

Of coarse there are many other implicit hints to Mary's sinlessness in the written word of God, Scripture, and direct explicit statements from the oral word of God by the Fathers in Sacred Apostolic Tradition. (Such as St Epiphanius of Salamis).

God bless

[writer]

an accurate translation's simply "graced," or "favored."
In addition, Christ lives in His believers, and we (for sure i) yet have sin in my flesh.

Christ's whole purpose is to be a friend of sinners. And even come to dwell within man as the very antidote and eventual destroyer of sin. To worship Mary in the kind poster's apparent kind of way is to subtly, or insidiously, seek to distance God from sinners.

Thanks

[athanasius]

Mr Writer, You said

In addition, Christ lives in His believers, and we (for sure i) yet have sin in my flesh.

My answer

You are correct, Jesus Lives in all who believe. And yes we all do still commit sin. Thanks God For Purgatory!!!!LOL! But your incorrect to think that “we” have been graced in the same way as Mary. This why you are NOT a New Testament Biblical Greek Scholar, and Father Mateo is.

Father Mateo explains that the phrase used to describe the Virgin Mary in Luke 1:28 is not the same phrase used to describe other Grace filled Christians in the New Testament. When the bible speaks about others having Gods Grace it is different in wording and in meaning in the Greek.

There is something special about Mary according to this passage in Luke. That is, Mary is full of Grace or a more literally “Perfected in Grace”(Not the same as other Christians). Hence if you are perfected in Grace then there is no room for sin. Period.



You also said

To worship Mary in the kind poster's apparent kind of way is to subtly, or insidiously, seek to distance God from sinners.

My response:

Catholics do not worship Mary. Period! We never have. Period. Our church has NEVER taught us to. Period! Our Catechism explains that we are to follow the commandments and have no other Gods. Period!

Also, to believe that Mary is sinless does not even come anywhere close to saying that we worship her. We do not. We gladly give glory and honor and praise to her but we never ever worship her. The concept of giving glory and honor and praise to other human beings penetrate the sacred scriptures . We worship God alone.

Of coarse I am not sure why your dialoguing with me? We have already established Mr Writer, that you may not understand these things(Mary’s Sinlessness) because you lack the fullness of divine revelation(Scripture and Tradition). And you also lack any ecclesiastical Authority passed down to you from the apostles to give you proper guidance on the meaning of scripture(Act 8:30-32).

You sir as we have already established in another forum, go by Sola Scriptura...or really you go by Sola Writer since you have proven in the past forums that the bible alone cannot give you doctrinal clarity on baptism, and you disagree with other sola scripturist .

So Sorry, But like I said earlier, there is really no discussion between us. My post was meant to read by other Catholics and Orthodox Christians who hold to Mary’s Sinlessness.

I would recommend a good book for you to read on the interpretation of the Greek meaning of Luke 1:28. I would recommend the book called “REFUTING THE ATTACK ON MARY” by Father Mateo.


On pages 20-26 he explains the Greek meaning. And he WAS a New Testament Biblical Greek Scholar. He was also a priest, who read and preached the scriptures every day, as all priest do.

God bless you in Jesus the King through Mary the Queen Mother

[writer]

57 But your incorrect to think that “we” have been graced in the same way as Mary.
To the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He graced us in the beloved, wrote Paul. If you're saying that only Mary, Jesus' mother, was was pregnant with Him physically; you're right

When the bible speaks about others having Gods Grace it is different in wording and in meaning in the Greek.
To the contrary: it's the same root

There is something special about Mary according to this passage in Luke.
She's Jesus' mother

That is, Mary is full of Grace or a more literally “Perfected in Grace”(Not the same as other Christians).
"Perfected in grace" is literally untrue. To the contrary, the best translation's the simple "graced. Favored" As she wuz

Hence if you are perfected in Grace then there is no room for sin. Period.
To the contrary: all except the sin-offering have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Including Jesus' dear mom, and my sister: Mary

Catholics do not worship Mary. Period! We never have. Period. Our church has NEVER taught us to. Period! Our Catechism explains that we are to follow the commandments and have no other Gods. Period
Glad 2 hear it

to believe that Mary is sinless does not even come anywhere close to saying that we worship her.
Glad 2 hear it. But i never wrote that. I wrote that to say Mary could bear Christ only if she's sinless is to, unconciously or not, distance the Savior from His saved

Of coarse I am not sure why your dialoguing with me?
Cuz it's a debate board?

We have already established Mr Writer, that you may not understand these things(Mary’s Sinlessness) because you lack the fullness of divine revelation(Scripture and Tradition).
Thas correct that i try not to put other writings on a par with Scripture

And you also lack any ecclesiastical Authority passed down to you from the apostles to give you proper guidance on the meaning of scripture(Act 8:30-32).
To contrary: the apostles writings are as good now, for me, as they were then

You sir as we have already established in another forum, go by Sola Scriptura.
What's "Sola Scriptura" since you seem to enjoy using that phrase? That the NT, and OT, Scriptures are God's preeminent written authority? That i might try and seek to "go by" the Bible? U r correct sir

or really you go by Sola Writer since you have proven in the past forums that the bible alone cannot give you doctrinal clarity on baptism,
To the contrary: i agree with the apostles' teaching on baptism in the Bible

and you disagree with other sola scripturist .
Sorry 2 hear that

there is really no discussion between us. My post was meant to read by other Catholics and Orthodox Christians who hold to Mary’s Sinlessness.
I apologize for reading your post here. And the last one directed to me

I would recommend a good book for you to read on the interpretation of the Greek meaning of Luke 1:28. I would recommend the book called “REFUTING THE ATTACK ON MARY” by Father Mateo.
Thank u kindly. In turn, i recommend you, and he, read the New Testament. If you want, feel free to pass on my recommendation to him

he WAS a New Testament Biblical Greek Scholar. He was also a priest, who read and preached the scriptures every day, as all priest do.
According to the New Testament teaching: all believers are, should be, and will be, sooner or later, priests to God and to His Christ. "And made us a kingdom, priests to His God and Father, to Him be the glory and the might forever and ever. Amen" Rv 1:6

<God bless you in Jesus the King>
Thank u. U likewise

[athanasius]

Writer you said

To the contrary: it's the same root.....Perfected in grace" is literally untrue. To the contrary, the best translation's the simple "graced. Favored" As she was

my answer

Again Mr writer, this is why YOU are NOT a New testament Biblical Greek Scholar, and Father Mateo is. You really could not debate him. This was his expertise. He taught at universities. You are a amateur. Again I point you to his book on pages 20-26 for a in depth explanation of the greek.

Thats 6 pages of Greek explanation on why this passage does refer to Mary as Completed or Perfected in Grace, unlike other Christians. He goes though the other passages in scripture that say people are “graced” and shows from the Greek that they do not mean the same thing. Again, your anti-intellectual fundamentalism of sola Writer is clearly showing your folly. Repent.

Writer you said

Glad to hear it. But i never wrote that. I wrote that to say Mary could bear Christ only if she's sinless is to, unconciously or not, distance the Savior from His saved

My answer

Really? you didn’t say we worshipped Mary? Now I have caught you in a down right lie. Here is what you said..........”To worship Mary in the kind poster's apparent kind of way is to subtly, or insidiously, seek to distance God from sinners”

Wow. Sure sounded like you said we worship Mary to me? Caught YOU in LIE. I hope all who read this will see your dishonesty. Oh and by the way, Catholics do NOT teach that Mary “HAD” to be sinless for her to bear Jesus in her womb.

God could have done what he wanted to do. We teach that he filled her and perfected her completely with Grace making her sinless because it would have been the “FITTING” thing for him to do and so he did as alluded in Luke 1:28. Think about it. Jesus was the only man that created his own Mother. Now if you could create your own mother, would you create her defiled in sin? Of coarse not.

This passage in Luke give us implicit evidence that Jesus created her in a sinless fashion and filled her and completed her with special grace. Of coarse God also shows that this dogma of faith (of her sinlessness) reflects her fulfilling Old testament typologies of Eve and the Ark of the covenant . All of these typologies the early Christian fathers and the oral Word of God(Apostolic tradition) talked about.

There are even implicit hints to this in the Book of Wisdom(Wisdom 1:4) which I discussed earlier. But all of this evidence, from Greek Scholars, the Fathers of the Church, and Scriptuire itself will not do you any good becuase you believe in Sola Writer.

ONly writer is right on all things...Only writer can interpret the scriptures right...and only writer knows what the Greek means even though writer isn’t a Greek scholar.

Writer said

To the contrary: the apostles writings are as good now, for me, as they were then

My answer

My point wasn’t that you didn’t have the scriptures. My point was that you didn’t have the God given authority passed down from you to the apostles to be able to interpret the written word correctly....YOu know like The Eunuch needed(Acts 8:30-32). You also lack the hindsight of 2000 years of Christian tradition to guide you. Again its sola Writer.


Writer said

To the contrary: i agree with the apostles' teaching on baptism in the Bible

My answer

My point was that you have no idea if what you believe is the correct interpretation of Baptism in the bible. You say you go by sola Scriptura. So does Baerly. And yet you both disagree with each-other on what Titus 3:5-7 means and what baptism is. You say you are teaching the truth of the bible. Well so does Baerly.

You see how you cannot really ever know doctrine based on sola scriptura. If you say he’s wrong then by what authority can you? By Scriptural Authority? By the Holy Spirit Guiding you? That won’t work cause he will just say the same thing to you? You’ll quote scripture. He will quote scripture. Both of you think your interpreting it correctly.

But you can only guess. You can only give it the old college try. Sola scriptura is not practically workable. Really it becomes Sola Writer. Only writer knows how to interpret the bible and everyone else is wrong. At least I have 2000 years of hindsight through tradition and a Church which historically can be traced back to the apostles and gets its apostolic authority from them who Got it from Christ himself.

writer said

Thank you kindly. In turn, i recommend you, and he, read the New Testament. If you want, feel free to pass on my recommendation to him

My answer

Wow, What a arrogant statement. Shame on you Mr writer. Father Mateo was a New Testament Greek Scholar. He read and studied and preached on the New testament constantly for years until his death. I am a theology student and also have read and prayed and studied the New Testament too. Your remark is just plain arrogant. Shame on you again. Repent!


writer said

According to the New Testament teaching: all believers are, should be, and will be, sooner or later, priests to God and to His Christ. "And made us a kingdom, priests to His God and Father, to Him be the glory and the might forever and ever. Amen" Rv 1:6


My answer


Yes indeed we are all priest. All Baptized believing members of the body of Christ are Priest, as St Peter(1 Peter 2:9) and the “Catechism of the Catholic Church” confirms(Paragraphs 1141-11430). But just like there was 3 different types of priesthood in the old testament, there are 3 different types in the new. We hold the universal priesthood of all believers. But we do not Hold the hight Priesthood. Jesus Holds the hight Priesthood alone as the book of Hebrews tells us.

And we also do not hold the middle ministerial ordained priesthood. The priest of the church hold that one. So it isn’t that we do not hold a priesthood. We do. But its the “kind” of priesthood we hold to. I really think your the one who needs to read his bible more often. And of coarse you would help yourself if you read the apostolic sacred tradition of the fathers too. But since you only do Sola Writer that won’t happen.


God bless you in Jesus through Mary

Athanasius

[writer]

59 a New testament Biblical Greek Scholar, and Father Mateo is.
Based on your summary, i don't think i could fairly call him that

You really could not debate him.
i debate that

He goes though the other passages in scripture that say people are “graced” and shows from the Greek that they do not mean the same thing.
If u respect it, feel free to share any of it. If u want

anti-intellectual fundamentalism of sola Writer is clearly showing your folly. Repent.
What i'd call 'anti-intellectualism,' if i were to take-up your words, would be arguing that somebody 'taught in universities;' as opposed to honestly and humbly simply trying to present What they taught. But i like your word 'repent.' Amen to that

you didn’t say we worshipped Mary? Now I have caught you in a down right lie. Here is what you said..........”To worship Mary in the kind poster's apparent kind of way is to subtly, or insidiously, seek to distance God from sinners”
Thanks Mr A. But i think you're downright mistaken. I said "kind poster's"---that is, You. Singular. I didn't accuse all Catholics, nor Catholics in general. You used the plural pronoun ("we"). I didn't. So it might be fair to say that your accusation of dishonesty against me is actually what your accusation is

Wow. Sure sounded like you said we worship Mary to me?
I said "kind poster's." Eg: Athanasius's. There's a difference between plural and singular. One's plural. The other's singular. They're different. They don't even sound the same in this case. Much less look the same

Catholics do NOT teach that Mary “HAD” to be sinless for her to bear Jesus in her womb.
55 how much more sinless would you have to be to have Jesus literally dwelling in your body for 9 months? Hence Scripture alludes in a implicit way to the Imaculate Conception of our Lady.
"Catholics do not teach that Mary HAD TO BE to bear Jesus...how much more sinless would you HAVE TO BE to have Jesus..."
So, if i understand u correctly, dear Athanasius, you're teaching what Catholics do not teach?

59 making her sinless because it would have been the “FITTING” thing for him to do...
55 how much more sinless would you HAVE TO BE to have Jesus...
"Fitting" is different than "Have" to be. Therefore your 59's different in that respect from your 55

59 Jesus was the only man that created his own Mother.
Jesus' human nature didn't create His mother. Rather: His mother's human nature, by reproduction, and the Holy Spirit's divine fertilization, created Jesus' humanity.
As God, of course, the Son of God created Mary along with all things

if you could create your own mother, would you create her defiled in sin? Of coarse not.
God didn't create sin, nor sinful humanity. God created man "very good." Sinless. Sin is Satan's own (John 8:44). As you kindly, and accurately, point out: Jesus' mother did not need to be sinless to conceive and deliver Him