Christian: Mary, Mother of God (Jesus Christ, Earth, gospel, grace) - Page 14

sojourner · #**131** 12-07-2006, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocka21

yes , but shouldn't the new testament be the basis for the church? if we were not instructed to pray to mary, through mary, or if she's not even mentioned ......

i guess my point is, did paul , timothy , or james pray to or ( through) mary? did they pray the rosery? was there a statue of mary in the antioch chruch or any of the paul established chruches?

No. The New Testament was not written before the Church was formed. The New Testament is a product of the Church. Christ is the basis for the Church.

The Church has developed many traditions that helps her worship and serve. The rosary is one of them. Statuary is another. The New Testament is another.

rocka21 · #**132** 12-07-2006, 12:52 PM

i guess my point is, did paul , timothy , or james pray to or ( through) mary? did they pray the rosery? was there a statue of mary in the antioch church or any of the paul established churches?

do you have an opinion on this question?

writer · #**133** 12-07-2006, 12:57 PM

131 The New Testament was not written before the Church was formed. The New Testament is a product of the Church. Christ is the basis for the Church.
Thas part o' why Christ gave, and "wrote," His NT, 2 Tim 3:16; Heb 9:15-17; 2 Cor 3:6

The Church has developed many traditions that helps her worship and serve. The rosary is one of them.
The NT church never developed "the rosary." Since Christ duzn't particularly need beads

Statuary is another.
God's church isn't for idolatry. She stands against it. Hence, any Church that develops statuary, icons, etc, isn't the church

sojourner · #**134** 12-07-2006, 01:20 PM

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Thas part o' why Christ gave, and "wrote," His NT, 2 Tim 3:16; Heb 9:15-17; 2 Cor 3:6

Through men who were members of the Church already.

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The NT church never developed "the rosary." Since Christ duzn't particularly need beads

The Roman Catholics seem more "New Testament" than "Old Testament" to me...
In any case, even if Christ doesn't "need beads," apparently many of his followers find them useful. Christ didn't need central heating and air, either...but we like it!

Quote:

God's church isn't for idolatry. She stands against it. Hence, any Church that develops statuary, icons, etc, isn't the church

Statuary isn't idolatry. Idols have power in and of themselves and are independent of a god. People worship idols. Statuary, as well as icons, rosary beads, crosses, etc. (such as those found in the RC Church) have no power independent of God. People don't worship these items. Therefore, they're not idols.

doppelgänger · #**135** 12-07-2006, 01:23 PM

What if Paul didn't mention Mary because that wasn't part of the myth yet when Paul was writing?

sojourner · #**136** 12-07-2006, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doppelgänger

What if Paul didn't mention Mary because that wasn't part of the myth yet when Paul was writing?

And where was Peter? With Paul, or Mary?

writer · #**137** 12-07-2006, 01:46 PM

134 The Roman Catholics seem more "New Testament" than "Old Testament" to me...
that "tradition" duzn't seem any Testament to me

in any case, even if Christ doesn't "need beads," apparently many of his followers find them useful.
i don't

Christ didn't need central heating and air, either...but we like it!
is central heating and air one of what u meant by your "many Church-developed traditions"?

Statuary isn't idolatry. Statuary, as well as icons, rosary beads, crosses, etc. (such as those found in the RC Church) have no power independent of God.
Az Paul realized and taught: idols are nothing, 1 Cor 10:19

People worship idols. Idols have power in and of themselves and are independent of a god.
To the contrary: idols are zero. It's the demons "behind" them that lead to demon-possession. Tho i agree w/ u mebbe that there seems to be a certain seductiveness to worshippin, venerating, praying towards/to, or bowing down to statues, pictures, relics, crosses, etc.
Thanx

doppelgänger · #**138** 12-07-2006, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sojourner

And where was Peter? With Paul, or Mary?

With James and John.

sojourner · #**139** 12-07-2006, 01:53 PM

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that "tradition" duzn't seem any Testament to me

Operative word here: seem

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in any case, even if Christ doesn't "need beads," apparently many of his followers find them useful.
i don't

Then, by all means, don't use them! Nobody wants to force you to do something that's a hindrance to you.

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is central heating and air one of what u meant by your "many Church-developed traditions"?

It's "church-developed," just as the Bible, and the rosary, and the statuary, etc. (Not mentioned in the Bible, but present now).

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Az Paul realized and taught: idols are nothing, 1 Cor 10:19

Which is why statuary, beads, icons, crosses, etc. are not idols -- they're not "nothing."

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seductiveness to worshippin, venerating, praying towards/to, or bowing down to statues, pictures, relics, crosses, etc.
Thanx

Seduction denotes manipulation. I prefer "drawn." I find no demons in these items -- only Christ -- who is not a demon.

rocka21 · #**140** 12-07-2006, 02:09 PM

so there we have it, the mary doctrine was " church- developed".

here are some interesting bible facts...........
the angle of the lord had to tell mary THREE times about the the birth of christ. why would she question if she was divine? Luke 2

Jesus rebuked her at the wedding.

she was a virgin only at christs birth. after , she had other children ( so... umm .. shes not a virgin).

she was filled with the holy ghost speaking in tongues . Acts 2 - ( sounds like she is a pentecostal).

and no i did not see her in my toast this morning!