Christian: Mary, Mother of God (Jesus Christ, Earth, gospel, grace)

[Victor]

Originally Posted by writer

why do u want us to talk about only her?
Thanks

I do?

[writer]

i apologize Victor. That's how i took your
94 *MOD POST* PLEASE REMEMBER THAT THIS THREAD IS ON MARY
97 let's get back on topic.



92 some of these verses(but not all) I mentioned may have a political base. For example, Bathsheba was the Queen Mother to the Davidic throne as we see in 1 Kings 2:19-20.
A para in my pos 90 stands corrected. I pologize. 1 K 2:19-20's "the king rose up to meet her and bowed himself before her" isN'T governmental. It's jus Sol respectin his mom, who both r "royalty." Indeed, i was mistaken that Athan's post 75s below were political. Xcept the 1st, and the last includes it. Sorry

That is why Solomon gave her veneration and bowed to her. What this passage shows is that it is ok to give other human beings a type of veneration(glory and Honor) and even bow to them as long as we do not worship them.
"Gave her veneration," to my ear, sounds like a misleading or archaic way of talking. If it was ever used the way u seem to use it here. "Respect" is a more current, or accurate, word. "Veneration" carries more the tone of "worship." Also it seems unnecessarily complicated, which makes one like me suspicious that there would be some attempt at obscurity (not that i'm accusin anyone o' that, pleze don't think so). "Give...a type of veneration, glory, honor"-----do u mean "respect?" It's one word instead o' 7.
"R E S P E C T" sang that one singer

even bow to them as long as we do not worship them. This is what Catholic do with Mary. In fact if Mary was hear I would very reverently kneel or bow to her because we Catholics see her as a typological fulfillment of the Davidic Queen Mother.
That's what occurs to me. I bow, however deeply or not deeply, to many people at many times. Even unbelievers. And i also don't bow on occasion.
But Mary isn't here. She's deceased. She's not present. Statues 'n pictures of some female purportin to b her rn't her. In my limited understanding

typological fulfillment of the Davidic Queen Mother.
Queen of the Church and the Apostles and the new Davidic Queen mother as we Catholics believe and understand from typology and from (Rev 12:1) and from the fathers of the church in the lived tradition or oral word of God
Christ's church herself is His Bride, His Queen. Hence to single out Mary in this way, as necessarily above other believers in His Body, is contrary to the Body.
Paul also calls Jerusalem above "our mother," Gal 4:26. Meaning She, His Bride; not Mary uniquely; is "Queen mother." According to the Bible.
Same with Revelation 12. Mary's there only as part of the woman and, hopefully, the child. Since they are corporate figures. Not individual humans

75 "Hesekiah rested with his fathers , and they buried him in the upper tomb of the sons of David; and all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem GAVE HIM GLORY AND HONOR at his death.”(2 Chron 32:33)
"And Hezekiah slept with his fathers, and they buried him in the upper part of the tombs of David's sons; and all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem honored him when he died" i find to b a littl more accurate translation. No word "glory" in Hebrew. But in any case: that's called a funeral

“And you shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother, for GLORY and for beauty.”(Ex 28:2)
That's what alot, or most, proper clothing's for. In which case it's common. And here related to priesthood. Living Christ---in New Testament terms (Philip 1:21)

“Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of DOUBLE HONOR, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching;”(1 Tim 5:17)
Accordin to 1 Tim 5:18, the following, and explainin, sentence: this emphasizes material supply. In any case, it also carries with it "respect." And's for living people

“He himself went on before them, BOWING himself to the ground seven times, until he came near to his brother”. (Gen 33:3)
Esau was also not dead. Nor in Hades. Nor in heaven. He was very present. And his brother was really scared of him, cuz of how he'd treated Esau (stealin his birthright etc). That may be why he bowed so much!

“Judah, your brothers shall praise you”(Gen 49:8)
"...Your father's sons will bow down before you." The name "Judah" (Gen 29:35) means "praise" in Hebrew. Since people praise one another for alot o' things. This too's not too unique. Nor is it worship. Except to the Lion of the tribe of Judah, Judah's descendant: Christ

92 We also see Paul instruct all members of that body to offer prayers and intercessions for one another(1 tim 2:1).
Thanks Athanasius. Is that why u wrote in 82:
Nor do we try to get information from dead saints
?

92 We believe that Mary has been assumed to heaven
One reason i wouldn't's cuz Paul wrote to Tim in 2 Tim 2 that Hymenaeus and Philetus misaimed concerning the truth by sayin that the resurrection's already taken place

This is something we find in the oral word of God in tradition explicitly and implicitly in scripture.
If by oral word of God u mean some apocrypha and fables from the early centuries, similar to the Gospel of Thomas, Protoevangelium of James, etc; then i must respond that's neither oral, nor the word of God. Nor supercedes Paul's word to Tim

Also this is something that we believe we have miraculous evidence on. The approved Marian apparitions of Lourdes and fatima seemed to prove this.
I, your fellow-brother, don't approve it. But in any case, speakin of "apparitions," although Samuel's was really Samuel from the dead in 1 Sam 28, thru divination;
he appeared from Hades. Not heaven

I hope that helps brother.
In my experience, these things don't help. They harm.
Thanks A for your patience and prayers

[athanasius]

Dear in Christ Mr Writer

Thank you for your post. May Christ bless me in trying to explain to you his truth. And may Christ bless both of us who are in love with him and on fire for his truth. Amen!

You said:

It's jus Sol respectin his mom, who both r "royalty."

My answer

thank you for your kind thoughts Mr writer. I would agree it is sol respecting his mother. But remember he does bow to her. This again clearly show that we can give a form of veneration(Or glory and Honor) to other human beings without it being worship. This is exactly what Catholics do with Mary.

As a matter of fact, when God says Honor your Mother and father, the hebrew word literally means to “Glorify”. We Catholics believe Mary is the spiritual Mother of all the apostle and all Christians(Rev 12:17).


You said:

"Veneration" carries more the tone of "worship."


My answer:
Catholics make a distinction in our theology between the Glory and Honor we give to other human beings(Dulia) and the worship we give to God alone(Latria). These distinctions were talked about by such ancients as Augustine.

So when we use the term “Veneration” we do not mean Worship by our definition. I believe this may just be a example of a terminology problem. We Catholics use terminology in a different sense, a more broader than do most protestants. I hope that helps.

You said

But Mary isn't here. She's deceased. She's not present. Statues 'n pictures of some female purportin to b her rn't her. In my limited understanding

My response

Statues and Holy images are just reminders. What family doesn’t have pictures of their Mother in their house? We Catholics have images of saints in our churches as reminders of those witnesses who historically went before us in faith, our spiritual brothers and sisters and Mary our Spiritual Mother(rev 12;17). Amen!

When we venerate a picture of a saint, we are simply venerating the saint whom that image represents, not worshipping that image or that person.

You said;
Christ's church herself is His Bride, His Queen. Hence to single out Mary in this way, as necessarily above other believers in His Body, is contrary to the Body.
Paul also calls Jerusalem above "our mother," Gal 4:26. Meaning She, His Bride; not Mary uniquely; is "Queen mother." According to the Bible.
Same with Revelation 12. Mary's there only as part of the woman and, hopefully, the child. Since they are corporate figures. Not individual humans


My response:

Catholics would say amen to most of your response. Yes we Catholics do agree that the Church is the bride of Christ! Amen! we also agree that the Church is the women talked about in Rev 12. However, We Catholics believe that Scripture is Polyvalent(Has many levels of meaning).

On one level the Church is being described in Rev 12, and on another level we believe Mary is being talked about. It isn’t a “either or” situation, either the church or Mary. To us its a “both and” situation its both the Church and Mary being described. the Fathers of the Church talked about the women being both the Church and Mary. We believe that Protestants often times limit their understanding of scripture to only one interpretation. We see scripture as being polyvalent in Catholic circles.

Amen. However, Mary is definitely the fulfillment of the davidic Queen Mother. Jesus is the fulfillment of the King in Davids line(Matt 1:1) , hence he is our davidic King. Mary was his real Mother. Hence she is the New davidic queen Mother as typology reveals and (Rev 12:1) and the fathers of the Church saw.

You said:

Nor is it worship.

My answer

I never said it was worship, I said it was veneration or honor given to him.

You said:

One reason i wouldn't's cuz Paul wrote to Tim in 2 Tim 2 that Hymenaeus and Philetus misaimed concerning the truth by sayin that the resurrection's already taken place

My answer:

Ok. please forgive me. I do not know how to answer this one, because I am not sure what your saying? We catholics agree that the final Judgment has not happened yet. But this has nothing to do with Mary’s being assumed into heaven.

We believe that God assumed Mary Body and soul into heaven as a foretaste of what will happen to us at the final judgement. But just because he assumed her body and soul into heaven doesn’t mean we are teaching that final judgement has come.

God can and did assume other people into heaven with out it being final judgement like Elijah(2 Kings 2:1-13). I have never hear any protestant make the arguments that you make. I am a little confused. Are you a Seventh day Adventist? It sounds like adventist doctrine but I could be wrong.


your said:

if by oral word of God u mean some apocrypha and fables from the early centuries, similar to the Gospel of Thomas, Protoevangelium of James, etc; then i must respond that's neither oral, nor the word of God. Nor supercedes Paul's word to Tim

My response

No indeed I do not mean fables or Gnostic gospels(Like thomas which the Catholic church never considered to be the word of God and condemned). Nor did I mean revelation that would super-cede Pauls . God is the source of all revelation both Oral and written. And since Not all revelation comes down to us in scripture(2 thess 2:15) but some in oral traditions that were handed down by the apostles to the fathers from generation to generation, this is what I mean. And this is what you can find in the Oral traditions of the fathers. Amen. I hope that clarifies things a bit. Sorry Mr writer if I was not clear on such issues before


You said:

2 We also see Paul instruct all members of that body to offer prayers and intercessions for one another(1 tim 2:1).
Thanks Athanasius. Is that why u wrote in 82:
Nor do we try to get information from dead saints
?

My answer

Asking a departed saint to pray for your needs is not anything like the as trying to get info from them as we see in 1 Sam 28. Catholics do not say “Mary Mary tell me what my future holds”. We simply give her Honor(following Jesus example) and ask her to ”Pray for us sinners” . I hope that helps my brother.


You said

he appeared from Hades. Not heaven

Of coarse he appears from Sheol my brother. Heavens gates haven’t been opened yet in the Old testament. But Mary does appear to us from Heaven because she is in Christ Jesus(who opened the doors to heaven. Once again we do not divine like found in (1 Sam 28).

Well Mr writer, I appreciate your time and your good questions. I believe that the 3rd Person in the Trinity (The Holy Spirit) is blessing our conversations. If for nothing else, then so we can understand each other. It s always good talking to you my brother in Christ. Pray for me as I always remember you in my prayers.

May God bless you always mr writer.

Speaking the Truth of Jesus Church
In Jesus through Mary,
Your brother Athanasius

[writer]

103 he does bow to her. This again clearly show that we can give a form of veneration(Or glory and Honor) to other human beings without it being worship.
In my understanding the word "veneration" connotes, and is closer to, worship; rather than "respect." If respect's what you're talkin about

This is exactly what Catholics do with Mary.
All Christians i'm aware of, and most unbelievers i know, respect Mary. If that's what you're talkin about

As a matter of fact, when God says Honor your Mother and father, the hebrew word literally means to “Glorify”.
I don't think that's accurate. But i'll try to check.
In any case, that's my point: we should honor everybody, and let God judge the unrighteous

We Catholics believe Mary is the spiritual Mother of all the apostle and all Christians(Rev 12:17).
U keep citing Rv 12 as if that supported your statements. Without deigning to show what makes u think it's about Mary individually, other than that there's a mother with child. All believers can, should be, and are spiritual mothers to one another. According to the Son's words. According to the apostle, the Jerusalem above is. The apostles are Mary's mother in this sense, and she theirs. To attempt to single her out for some kind of unique or highest "veneration" in this regard's both idolatrous, pointless, and contrary to Scripture and God's economy

Catholics make a distinction in our theology between the Glory and Honor we give to other human beings(Dulia) and the worship we give to God alone(Latria).
R your distinctions able to be put in common, ordinary English?
By "dulia" do u simply mean respect?

We Catholics use terminology in a different sense, a more broader than do most protestants.
Not really. If you feel yourself unable to be specific

Statues and Holy images are just reminders.
I'd say they're idols

When we venerate a picture of a saint, we are simply venerating the saint whom that image represents, not worshipping that image or that person.
"Venerate" a picture: "give glory and honor to" a picture?
Is the definition o' idolatry

we also agree that the Church is the women talked about in Rev 12. However, We Catholics believe that Scripture is Polyvalent(Has many levels of meaning).
To the contrary: the Scripture means what it means, and duzn't mean what it duzn't mean. It duzn't diminish from what it means by meaning somethin else or less.
Know whut i mean?

It isn’t a “either or” situation, either the church or Mary.
Is precisely God's people. Which necessarily includes Mary, and u, and me. Consequently Rv 12's definitely not u singleley, me singleley, nor Mary singleley

the Fathers of the Church talked about the women being both the Church and Mary.
Your "Fathers of the Church" are in fact not because the church was begun with the apostles; and also spiritually includes many "fathers" in the past 2000 years.
In any case, talking about Rev 12's woman as Mary individually neither makes, nor made, her so

We see scripture as being polyvalent in Catholic circles.
It depends on the Scripture or context. That's not, and shouldn't be, a rule to prejustify perverting, distorting, or contradicting Scripture to fit preconceived or unsuited notions

Mary is definitely the fulfillment of the davidic Queen Mother.
Mary individually's definitely not the fulfillment of the davidic Queen Mother. Christ, her son's, kingdom's spiritual. Not natural or worldly or carnal

Jesus is the fulfillment of the King in Davids line(Matt 1:1) , hence he is our davidic King. Mary was his real Mother. Hence she is the New davidic queen Mother as typology reveals and (Rev 12:1)
To the contrary of your last sentence: Christ has many "mothers" in the church. As Christ said in Mark 3. And His spiritual supercedes, and's much more important, than His natural. His whole Bride's a mother. Christ calls Jerusalem above: His new creation. Thanks

[writer]

Para 6's "Not really" above was directed at the gentleman, Mr A,'s comment: 'i hope this helps.'
Sorry

[athanasius]

Dear in Christ Mr Writer

Thank you for sincerety and honesty. May our Lord bless this dialuge.

You said

In my understanding the word "veneration" connotes, and is closer to, worship; rather than "respect." If respect's what you're talkin about

My answer;

Ahh yes I think your understanding our position better now. The Holy Spirit is definatly at work. You are right. The Catholic understanding of veneration is a high form of respect(or glory and Honor) that we give to other human beings.

This is how the Catholics and the Catholic church uses the term. we do not give worship or adoration to Saints, only veneration. Here is what our Catechism ,the sure norm for Catholic teaching says about the respect and veneration we give to saints using their images.

“The christian Veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed the “Honor” rendered to a image passes to its prototype, and whoever venerates the image venerates “the Person” who is portrayed in it. The honor paid to Sacred images is a “Respectful Veneration” , Not the adoration due to God alone” (Catechism of the Catholic church page 517 paragraph 2132)

So we Catholics as I have said earlier do not worship anyone but God alone. We do however give glory and Honor or “respectful veneration” to the saints. We honor them when looking at a image of them. But this is not idolatry because in a act of idolatry one gives worship or adoration to that image like the golden calf. Catholics do not give worship or adoration to Paintings, Icons or statues. That would be silly and sinful.

We simply use them to remember our family who went before us and give respect and honor to them, not worship. Like wise I kissed the feet of a crucifix today. I did not bow down and worship that piece of wood and metal as a God. I simply meditated on what Jesus did for me and gave him a sign of respect and thanksgiving.

Many Protestants do the same. Every year at the baptist church I used to attend they would have “Images” of the nativity scene. Many times people would be kneeling down and praying in front of the nativity scene. They were not worshipping the statues, they simply were recalling to memory what God has done for the world and they gave veneration to him.

Veneration is something that can be given to both God and humans beings. But only worship is given to God alone. So its not idolatry because we do not worship statues. I hope that helps. Bless you brother.

you said

U keep citing Rv 12 as if that supported your statements. Without deigning to show what makes u think it's about Mary individually, other than that there's a mother with child. All believers can, should be, and are spiritual mothers to one another. According to the Son's words. According to the apostle, the Jerusalem above is. The apostles are Mary's mother in this sense, and she theirs. To attempt to single her out for some kind of unique or highest "veneration" in this regard's both idolatrous, pointless, and contrary to Scripture and God's economy


My answer

We Catholics do not think it is Mary individually being talked about here. We think that this passage is talking about several things. One of them is definitely in a literal sense is the Church, the other is the Blessed Virgin Mary in a spiritual sense. We believe the scripture has literal and spiritual senses. Scripture is Polyvalent in our understanding.

Our connections with this come from looking and seeing how Mary fulfills the role of New Eve in scripture in Luke and John as I have mentioned the evidence for this in a earlier post. This is something that the Fathers of the Church taught.

So we get insight from the scripture itself, our best scripture scholars like Dr Scott Hahn, and the fathers of the Church who have the historical antiquity and witness of the christian Church for 2000 years. We catholics would politely disagree with our separated brethren on this.

I would say that Scripture is definitely polyvalent and the non-catholic s really limit themselves to just the literal interpretation and forget about the several different spiritual senses it has. I would also respectfully and charitably say that the non-Catholic really has the burden of proof.

We catholics at least have the testimony of the fathers from antiquity. So it would seem in history that Mary was always seen as the New eve and the queen in history. This made biblical sense for the Fathers and it makes biblical sense for modern day Catholics. I hope that helps. thank you for your time.

You said

By "dulia" do u simply mean respect?

My answer

Yes we do. we mean a respectful honor we give to saints, not worship.

You said

Venerate" a picture: "give glory and honor to" a picture?
Is the definition o' idolatry

My answer

I have already pointed out that we do not worship statues. We give glory and honor to whom that statues represents as it is ok in scripture to give glory and honor to other human beings(1 tim 5:17, 1 Kings 2:19-20) as our Catechism teaches. In our terminolgy when we say Venerate a picture we mean venerating the person whom that picture represents.

Well my separated brother I really appreciated talking to you again. My God richly bless you

Speaking the truth of Christ church in love,
In Jesus through Mary
Athanasius

[athanasius]

Oh sorry just one more thing. Mr writer you said

To attempt to single her out for some kind of unique or highest "veneration" in this regard's both idolatrous, pointless, and contrary to Scripture and God's economy

my answer

Singling her out to give her a unique and high form of veneration(Hyper dulia) is not idolatry. Its not because we do not worship her like a goddess. It was actually Jesus himself who gave Mary “Glory and Honor” (the word for “honoring your Parents” in the ten commandments literally means to glorify).

The Scripture shows us he did this as “All generation will call her blessed(Luke 1:48), he Made her Immaculate(Luke 1:28) and Made her the Ark of the New covenant(Luke 1:39-36 fulfills 2 Sam 6) and making her the New Eve (Gen 3:15, Luke 1-3, John 2:4, 19:26, Rev 12:1-5) And Queen Mother(1 Kings 2:19-20; Rev 12:1).

It was her that he(Jesus) chose to reveal miracles through in Fatima in the 1900’s and Lourdes in the 1800’s and still does today. It was Mary that was always seen as being given a place of honor and veneration in the church in the catacombs and the church fathers and early christian Liturgies saw this honor that Jesus gave to her and imitated it in thier worship.

So we didn’t give glory and Honor to Mary first, Jesus did. We simply followed his example to honor or glorify Mary our spiritual Mother(rev 12:17)

May God bless you always Mr writer my brother

Speaking the truth of christ Catholic Church in Charity,
Athanasius

[writer]

103 the final Judgment has not happened yet. But this has nothing to do with Mary’s being assumed into heaven.
2 Tim 2 Hymenaeus and Philetus misaiming by sayin that the resurrection's already taken place means Mary, nor any believer,'s experienced yet that physical resurrection (Jn 5). Nor rapture. So that has 'everything' to do with Mary's assumption

just because he assumed her body and soul into heaven doesn’t mean we are teaching that final judgement has come.
2 Tim 2:17-18 does not say "final judgment." It says two "misaimed saying that the resurrection's already taken place." Mary, like the rest of believers, is not "body and soul," nor spirit, in heaven. At least according to the Bible

God can and did assume other people into heaven with out it being final judgement like Elijah(2 Kings 2:1-13).
Enoch, Elijah, and Moses apparently, are Scriptural special cases. Not fables.
Additionally, Elijah and Moses haven't experienced the resurrection 2 Tim and Jn 5 address. Since they'll be His "two witnesses." Die, resurrect, and be assumed per Rv 11:3-12 at the end of this age

Are you a Seventh day Adventist?
No

oral traditions that were handed down by the apostles to the fathers from generation to generation,
The apostles never, and never would, handed down that Mary's already resurrected and raptured. Nor many of the other written "oral" fables to which u refer

find in the Oral traditions of the fathers.
If you're referring to things written by so-called "fathers," then we have them cuz they're written. Not "oral"

Asking a departed saint to pray for your needs is not anything like the as trying to get info from them as we see in 1 Sam 28.
What of info not as we c in 1 Sam 28?
Since u wrote:
We also see Paul instruct all members of that body to offer prayers and intercessions for one another(1 tim 2:1).

Heavens gates haven’t been opened yet in the Old testament.
I don't understand what exactly u mean by this

106 my separated brother
Why do u say "separated"? I wouldn't believe that. Christ's not divided.
Yours,

[writer]

Glory to God, glory, O praise Him hallelujah