Christian - Christ is the only way to salvation (Jesus Christ, ritual)

[michel]

Keep posting such good 'stuff' Jenyar, and you'll make a reputation for yourself - a very good piece!

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Jenyar

Mormons forget that the belief that everybody would be resurrected was already there long before Jesus came on the scene.

I never forgot that in the least. I just don't see what bearing it has on the debate, because what you seem to forget is the knowledge that all the people who cared to look had that there would be a redeemer and a saviour, as shown by the many, many prophesies and types of him in the OT.

Originally Posted by Jenyar

Mormons think this means that Christ simply reversed the effects of Adam's sin and nothing more. But Jesus doesn't. He goes on to say whom God adopts as sons - his brothers and sisters - implying that only the people God chooses to call children have the right to call Him "Father", and are no longer sons of Adam. Paul picks up on this, saying we inherit eternal life from God because we are heirs of Christ and not heirs of Adam or the laws that point out sin (Rom. 8:17; Gal. 3:29). So we must find out what inheritance Jesus left. Was it just physical life to counter physical death?

Whoever god chooses to be heirs of him, he will choose because they lived like Jesus, following his every example (such as becoming a member of the melchizedek priesthood). God won't just choose any passing "christian" to be his heirs. He will choose the ones that prove themselves worthy of inheriting the celestial kingdom. Also remember that verse about "in my fathers kingdom ther are many masions." I don't remember where that is.

Originally Posted by Jenyar

1 Corinthians 15:21-22
For since by man came death, by man came also resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

So what is the problem with thinking that all shall live. Since adam caused death, physical death, to befall EVERYBODY, so did Christ allow that EVERYBODY should at least be resurected.

Originally Posted by Jenyar

So the concept of universal judgement was already established, and it requires that everybody appear before the throne of Judgement, where God would separate the goats from the sheep. So everyone, good and bad, will be resurrected to be judged by the words of Christ.

No disagreement there.

Originally Posted by Jenyar

Mormons think this means that Christ simply reversed the effects of Adam's sin and nothing more

That's not what I think at all. He did much more than that. But that was certainly one of the things he did.

Originally Posted by Jenyar

28-29) "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned."

You're right about that. But this refferrs to what will happen during Jesus's millenial reign, during which the unriteous will be punished in hell for the 1000 years, and then be resurected into the lowest degree of heaven.

Originally Posted by Jenyar

The everlasting contempt or condemnation of God was called the "second death" by the Rabbis

A good argument for my cause is that this everlasting second death is only spoken of in conjuction with those who willfully go against god.

[michel]

[PART QUOTE=Aqualung].
......"A good argument for my cause is that this everlasting second death is only spoken of in conjuction with those who willfully go against god."...............[/PART QUOTE]

Good post, again, aqualung; however your last sentence while it is 'politically correct', I do not personally accept. I believe that God will accept us all in the end.

[blueman]

Throughout the New Testament Gospels, Jesus acknowledged Himself being the only path to a relationship with God. You either believe Him to be true or think He was the biggest fraud in history. Trying to rationalize it any other way is futile in my opinion. I think what He said throughout scripture is very straight-forward with no ambiguity.

[michel]

Originally Posted by blueman

Throughout the New Testament Gospels, Jesus acknowledged Himself being the only path to a relationship with God. You either believe Him to be true or think He was the biggest fraud in history. Trying to rationalize it any other way is futile in my opinion. I think what He said throughout scripture is very straight-forward with no ambiguity.

Given time, I think even the most hardened disbeliever will learn to love God - besides, I said that that was my personal view. You are as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. I do not see an ever loving God as not giving everyone as many chances as that person needs.And that is my personal opinion, again. The Focus always returns to LOVE; God Loves.

[blueman]

Originally Posted by michel

Given time, I think even the most hardened disbeliever will learn to love God - besides, I said that that was my personal view. You are as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. I do not see an ever loving God as not giving everyone as many chances as that person needs.And that is my personal opinion, again. The Focus always returns to LOVE; God Loves.

Michel, I agree with you that God is a loving, merciful and graceful God, but He is also a just God and if you believe Biblical Scripture to be the ordained Word of God, it is pretty clear that God will give man and woman every chance to repent and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour, but there will reach a point of no return as Paul speaks to in Thessalonians and as John wrote about through his visions of the end times in the book of Revelation. Jesus discussed this and taught this to his followers throughout the New Testament that there will be a great judgement when all is said and the done, a judgement of the just and a judgement of the unjust. No matter how loving God is, He is also fair and just and His Word will not return unto Him void.

[michel]

Originally Posted by blueman

Michel, I agree with you that God is a loving, merciful and graceful God, but He is also a just God and if you believe Biblical Scripture to be the ordained Word of God, it is pretty clear that God will give man and woman every chance to repent and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour, but there will reach a point of no return as Paul speaks to in Thessalonians and as John wrote about through his visions of the end times in the book of Revelation. Jesus discussed this and taught this to his followers throughout the New Testament that there will be a great judgement when all is said and the done, a judgement of the just and a judgement of the unjust. No matter how loving God is, He is also fair and just and His Word will not return unto Him void.

I hope and pray that there will never be a need for him to deny any soul from heaven; I truly hope that everyone will believe - however long it takes.

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by michel

[PART QUOTE=Aqualung].
......"A good argument for my cause is that this everlasting second death is only spoken of in conjuction with those who willfully go against god."...............[/PART QUOTE]

Good post, again, aqualung; however your last sentence while it is 'politically correct', I do not personally accept. I believe that God will accept us all in the end.

Even those who purposefully rejected christ and his teachings? Well you, sir, are utterly wrong!

Originally Posted by michel

Given time, I think even the most hardened disbeliever will learn to love God

I think this is entirely true, too. One of the things mormons get a lot of flack about is thinking that most people will be saved. But I still think there are those who just don't care, even though they know what the rewards are if they do.