Christian - Christ is the only way to salvation (Jesus Christ, ritual)

[Jenyar]

Originally Posted by Aqualung

Actually, I asked this question not too long ago. IT goes like this. A priest is given the keys to the priesthood when . . . well, when he becomes a priest. Those keys are never taken away, but hes just not using them righteously. So if he baptised someone, the baptism would still count, becuase he still has the keys. But, he will certainly get his just deserts for using the keys unrighteously.

That brings you back to the original problem of how the keys could have been lost by the first Christians. What did the first apostles manage to do wrong, that Mormons are doing right? It's not righteousness, I can tell you that.

[Jenyar]

Originally Posted by brotherjim

Nothing you quoted answers either of my questions.

You did point out a couple good passages that can be used as a witness against someone who is not walking with the one true God---my own personal favorite is 1 John 2:3-5---but you have not told us how a Christian who was once genuinely born-again, can now know if:

1) the good works that are now coming forth from their life are indeed those referred to in such places as James 2 as being a necessary witness to the genuineness of their conversion (i.e., a result of God's Spirit and Laws supernaturally in/still in them)---as compared to it just being a coincidence that the person was once truly born-again, but is now just performing good works as an action of their fleshly soul, just as any so-called "well-meaning" person also does, and;

2) their outward expressions of love and faith and meekness and joy and so forth, are the actual supernatural manifestations of God's Spirit, the Fruits of Gal. 5---or is just feigned via the fleshly soul like any pious, religious, self-disciplined person also expresses.

That's a question that might be a problem for someone whose faith depends on his deeds. "Am I good enough? Am I genuinely manifesting the Spirit, or is it wishful thinking? Are my acts of love supernatural or natural?" If you can doubt yourself like that, it's a warning sign that your faith is still in yourself, not in God. Would you doubt God like that, if you truly believed in Him? We might never know how God used us; we might doubt our use to Him, or question our obedience to his commands - and those doubts might motivate us to do more and try harder - but even a crystal clear conscience wouldn't justify us. "Therefore it does not depend on the one who wills, neither on the one who runs, but on God, who shows mercy." (Rom. 9:16).

Jesus made no distinction between what good deeds look like before or after someone's conversion - after they had a genuine encounter with Him. He simply told the adulterous woman "Go now and leave your life of sin." All she needed to know in order to leave her life of sin is what sin was - not what a life without sin was. That's why the law remains to point out sin, and our conscience is our most valuable asset.

A walk with Jesus doesn't take Jesus away, as if we now have to walk the path of suffering alone. We were called Christians because we follow Christ, and we will overcome if we persevere - not because we "succeed". Success is not our victory, it's Christ's victory. That's why we follow Him. Otherwise we might just as well follow Ghandi, Krishna or Mother Theresa.

(After all, even the heathen agapao love the "brethren" of their clicks/clubs/inner circles. And there are literally millions upon millions of religious people in this world who are not Christian, who outwardly sin far less than the masses of Christianity, and who pray more, who believe they are obeying some inner voice of God, who---)

Exactly, our works have no eternal merit. It's not a clean conscience that justifies anyone. What did the Pharisee pray again? "God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get."

Luke 18:13-14 "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

If you are still trying to gain favour with God apart from placing faith in Him, you will lose whatever you have acquired when you die. Doing good is what we were appointed for - it's simply our duty. Anything less than 100% is sin. An employee doesn't earn anything extra when he does what he's getting paid for. The Pharisees were experts at working overtime - time they did not have - and they ended up losing the little they did have to those in need of time.

Rom. 9:30-31 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it.

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Jenyar

That brings you back to the original problem of how the keys could have been lost by the first Christians. What did the first apostles manage to do wrong, that Mormons are doing right? It's not righteousness, I can tell you that.

What the firts apostles managed to do wrong was confer more apostles. Eph. 2:20 states "And are built upon the foundations of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the cheif corner stone." The apostle didn't pass along those keys. Which created some problems, because the only way certain guys a little "lower" on the chain can get their keys is from apostles. So they never got there's. Plus, complete apostasy of the priest caused God to just remove the authority. You were talking the apostasy of the individual.

[nutshell]

Paul prophesied of the apostasy when he was telling the Thessalonians of Christ's second coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 says, "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition." The Thessalonians were in an unrest because they kept hearing that Christ was coming again soon. Paul lets them know to relax because the Church would fall away (apostasize) before he returns.

Peter spoke of the restoration in Acts 3:20-21 saying, "And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hat spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."

So we have Paul saying there will be a falling away before the Second Coming and we have Peter saying there will be a restitution before the Second Coming.

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by nutshell

Peter spoke of the restoration in Acts 3:20-21 saying, "And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hat spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."

I don't see how that prophesies what you say it does. Can you explain it, and maybe give other references?

[nutshell]

Originally Posted by Aqualung

I don't see how that prophesies what you say it does. Can you explain it, and maybe give other references?

The restitution Peter speaks of is the restoration of the gospel. Peter says that Christ is in Heaven and won't return until the restoration of the gospel takes place.

[brotherjim]

Whoever,

Still unanswered; how can a Christian who was once genuinely born-again, now know if:

1) the good works that are now coming forth from their life are indeed those referred to in such places as James 2 as being a necessary witness to the genuineness of their conversion (i.e., a result of God's Spirit and Laws supernaturally in/still in them)---as compared to it just being a coincidence that the person was once truly born-again, but is now just performing good works as an action of their fleshly soul, just as any so-called "well-meaning" person also does, and;

2) their outward expressions of love and faith and meekness and joy and so forth, are the actual supernatural manifestations of God's Spirit, the Fruits of Gal. 5---or is just feigned via the fleshly soul like any pious, religious, self-disciplined person also expresses.

(After all, even the heathen agapao love the "brethren" of their clicks/clubs/inner circles. And there are literally millions upon millions of religious people in this world who are not Christian, who outwardly sin far less than the masses of Christianity, and who pray more, who believe they are obeying some inner voice of God, who---)

Surely God has provided a way for us to know, no?!

brother jim
brotherjim@mail.com

[blueman]

Originally Posted by Aqualung

What does this mean? I here lots of people say that this means that once you beleive in Christ you are saved, and that's all there is to it, and that that's what grace is. I don't beleive this at all. Here are my own personal views on what it means.
christ is the only way to salvation not because that is the only thing we need to be saved, but "only way" in that nobody else could save us no matter how much they wanted to. I can't save myself. My dad can't save me. George Bush can't save me. Christ is the only way.

I beleive then that grace comes in. After all we have done, no matter how hard we try, we won't be able to save ourselves, which means that we aren't worthy for salvation. Therefore, there needs to be that grace. Jesus will save us after all we have done, through grace. This does not mean that we can just go around and do whatever we want, and still be able to rely on god's grace. The key phrase there is "after all we have done."

Jesus does save everybody in that we will all be saved from death. That much is clear. But it is also clear that this salvation is extended toward everyone, not just those that beleive in him. Everybody will be resurected from the dead. Jesus overcame death so that we would not die, and by we it means everybody. This comes from Christ alone, and we don't need to do anything to secure that.

Another problem with the first way of beleiving is that it does not take into account many things. It says that the only way to salvation is through faith, and that's all you need. But salvation from what, and to what? Everybody will be saved from death in that everybody will be resurected. Is it salvation from the second, spiritual death that will go to the bad people? No. This death is for very few people, for those who willingly take upon themselves the name of the devil.

Another thing wrong with that way of thingking is that it saves the wrong people. It would save a murderer who happened to beleive in Christ but didn't bother following Christ's example. It woudn't save a person who was born before Christ but followed mosaic law, or someone who happened to be born in a time and place where people just weren't hearing about it, but happened to be living a good life. That isn't fair, and God is a fair God.

What do other's think about this?

I totally disagree with you. Ephesians 2:8,9 states that we are saved by grace and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works lest nay man should boast. This mean we can not be saved by being a good person, works does not yield salvation.

Romans 3:23 states That all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

In Romans 10:9,10 it talks about confession with the your mouth the Lord Jesus and thou shalt believe in thine heart that God has raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. With the heart, man believeth unto righteous and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

John 14:6, Jesus states "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me.

You are right that all will be judged one day by God, but the Bible speaks of two judgements, one of the righteous and one of the unrighteous.

Take it for what it's worth, but there is no ambiguity according to biblical scripture regarding salvation.

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by blueman

I totally disagree with you. Ephesians 2:8,9 states that we are saved by grace and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God

That's because no matter how hard you try, there's no way you will ever be good enough on your own. You just can't live a perfect life, and that is the only way you will ever be able to save youself. Grace is that fact that even though you aren't good enough, you will still be able to be saved. But this is a far cry from just being able to walk around and do whatever you want, and still be saved.

Originally Posted by blueman

Romans 3:23 states That all have sinned and come short of the glory of God

That's why you need grace, and I'm not denying that you need it.

[blueman]

Originally Posted by nutshell

The restitution Peter speaks of is the restoration of the gospel. Peter says that Christ is in Heaven and won't return until the restoration of the gospel takes place.

The gospel does not need to be restored. To the extent people fall away from the faith is based on their own free will, not because the gospel needs to be restored. And Paul was also referring to the coming of the "antichrist" in his reference to "son of perdition".