Christian - Christ is the only way to salvation (Jesus Christ, ritual)

[michel]

Originally Posted by brotherjim

Greetings, AV1611, in the Name of the Lord Christ Jesus!

Ditto, sir.

(Hey, the intro. in my new NASB says that the 1611 KJV was a remake/update (I forgot their exact word) of some c.1586 "Bishop's Bible." 'Sup w. dat?)Well, time will tell; we'll see {-_-}

Hey, the intro to your copyrighted NASB is wrong --- it's a translation, not an update. Where the KJV differs from the Bishop's Bible, the Bishop's Bible is wrong --- same for your NASB.

Wellll, ehhhh, ummmmm, thanks, but I claim it from Above

Been there --- done that. O the joy of our salvation, eh?

I'm tempted to spell out that sound someone hears at an ice hockey game when a goal is scored, but I don't know how to spell it, and such would be somewhat cruel and insensitive---and I'm so very girly for a guy, thank you Jesus. Besides, few are willing to communicate with me, and I'm always---well, most of the time {-_-}---grateful when someone does. So thanks.

I'm lost on that one --- I don't watch Hockey. I'll communicate with almost anyone.

The Fruits of the Spirit---given both in a "measure" of each the nine at the time of the New Birth, and then subsequently, also instantaneously, individually available in all their supernatural fullness (www.EnterHisRest.org)---are not detectable in the natural realm. After all, consider how many thought that Jesus---who of course had all nine Fruits in all their fullness---was a devil. They could not discern either His Love, Meekness, or Goddness (and a whip of a cat-o-nine-tales was not very indicative of Gentleness---looks truly are deceiving).

Well, you're wrong there. For one thing, the High Priest knew that Jesus was the Messiah - (John 11:47-53). The only time He was accused of having a devil was when He spoke of His deity (John 7:20; 8:25).

If you can't detect Love, Joy, Peace, Gentle, Meekness, Longsuffering, Faith, etc in the natural realm, you're a poor judge of character.

We can better understand this if we consider the verse, "Is your eye evil because I am Good?" We as sinful flesh, mostly still full of "envy and strife" (KJV), refuse to admit the existence in another, of that which we ourselves have failed to obtain from God.

And what specifically have "we" failed to obtain from God?

(One exception would be, those one-in-a-million Mother Theresa's and such, who we tend to idolize and consider a rare exception, refusing to admit that God has called EVERY Christian to the same degree of like-servanthood.)

What? YOU might envy Mother Theresa, but I don't.

So, no, I'm truly sorrowed to say, but your response does not answer the "dilemma." I really do appreciate the attempt, though.

I'm not sure why that's so important to you. Do I detect something recently happening in your life that may have had something to do with someone you thought was saved, but turned out not to be? (None of my business, though --- feel free to say so.)

"Peace and Grace be multiplied onto you," AV1611, those glorious "manifold Graces of God," in Jesus' precious and exalted-above-all Name

Ditto --- (minus the fanfare).

[Jenyar]

Originally Posted by Aqualung

It's Jesus who makes them count. But he won't make them count unless they are done by the proper authority.

You're bifurcating. Please answer the question again: Who is it that makes them count?

How many priests were allowed into the Holy of holies, to intercede and make atonement for the community? And how many priests or elders were that priest (or priests) dependent on for interceding like this before God?

Of course not. Do you think that if I went and got baptised by one having proper authority, yet I didn't beleive in Jesus, I didn't beleive in baptism, and I hadn't repented of my sins, that it would mean anything? Of course not!

You just said above that Jesus won't make it count if it's not done by a proper authority - the implication is that he will make it count if they are (that's what it means to give someone authority). If you can't be certain of their authority (i.e. ability) to decide whether an action counts or not - whether an ordinance is valid or a commandment has been properly followed - what make your priests and elders more authoritive than any other Christian on earth?

[Jenyar]

Originally Posted by brotherjim

Whoever,

The above, not necessarily true---not at all.

There are innumerable people in the world of many faiths, likely including satanists somewhere (I at least know such is true of some "white" witches), who do good works.

Also, thoroughly ludicrous: if someone takes the Holy Bible and its Christian principles, and applies them as a philosophy to their life---just like was extensively done when forming the laws of this country America---and then performs good works, such qualifies them as fulfilling the requirements of James Chapter Two?!?

"I tell you the truth: many will come to Me in That Day, and say, "Lord, Lord, did we not. . . ."

And even if someone genuinely, at some past time in their life, received the miraculous New Birth and was truly transformed at that time, does such necessarily mean that today, say, 5 or 10 years later, that when they do this good deed or that, that such is the result of God's Laws written upon their heart, and the (V)voice of the (S)spirit of God dictating within them? Could they not simply be doing good things as a result of fleshly will, identical to the example above of those with religions other than Christianity? If so, then such forthcoming good works cannot possibly bear any true witness to Christ in them---it is mere coincidence.

So how does someone know?

brother jim
brotherjim@mail.com

Thank you brother jim. This is why I insist that good works have no meritorious value - not in a Christian or in any other faith. So when I say "our actions either confirm or deny our faith", I don't mean specifically Christian faith, although it applies to Christians as well. Anybody's faith can be seen by the fruits it produces. But as Adam quickly found out, not every fruit that looks good to eat and "desireable for gaining wisdom" is necessarily considered so by God. We have to find out what He approves of as well.

You say you believe that the fruits of the Spirit are not "detectable in the natural realm", but I don't agree, and I daresay neither would the apostles. Paul contrasts the fruit of the Spirit with the following:

Gal. 4:19-21 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Now some of these, like envy and selfish ambition, are indeed "conditions of the heart" that may or may not be outwardly detectable, but others, like fits of rage, are certainly "detectable in the natural realm". But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. These qualities all bear fruit in the natural realm, and it's them that Jesus said would identify someone who follows him. That's why he commanded: "Produce fruit in keeping with repentance" (Matt. 3:8) and said "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock" (Matt. 7:24).

And this is where might agree again: a good house on sand is no better than a bad house on sand. Our works - though intrinsically no better than any other person's, believer or not, Christian or not - only stand at all if they are built with Christ as their foundation, only if the tree itself is rooted in Christ. That's why false prophets - though their works might even have been miraculous, driving out demons and prophesying in Jesus' name - will still be told plainly "I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers": They weren't rooted in Christ, and so could never gain God's approval.

Because the "trees" refer to the people themselves, you are right: it also means the proselytes. Jesus told the Pharisees "Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad", which must refer to their disciples. But the same principle applies as above. If the Pharisees are a foundation of sand, their disciples will have their roots in sand, and their deeds will show it. So before someone listens to a "prophet", they should look at his works as well as the people who believed him to see whether they preached Christ, or themselves.

[brotherjim]

Originally Posted by Jenyar

Thank you brother jim.

PtL, Jenyar; 2 Cor. 9:12.

Jenyar, I'm going to shuffle your statements---hope that's okay.

. . . These qualities all bear fruit in the natural realm, and it's them that Jesus said would identify someone who follows him. . . .

Ummmm.....since you are telling us your opinion of what Jesus said rather than giving us the Scripture, I'm left assuming that you are referring to Jesus saying, "By this will all men know you are My disciples, by your love one for the other" (Jn. 13:35).

There are two possibilities implied here.

First, if you ref. the verses prior to the above, and again the synonymous John 15:12-13, you should find that Jesus was referring to the required-by-God degree of unconditional Love whereby the Christian lays down their life for other Christians (or whatever you interpret "friends" to be). We have an example of this somewhat when the first disciples of the post-Jesus-in-the-flesh Apostles, liquidated their life's assets and laid all the proceeds at the feet of those Apostles.

I think we will all be in agreement here, such a degree of Love is non-existant in the church today (in any case, I've never seen it in my 24 years w/ the Lord, so doubtless the world (". . . all men. . . .") has access to such an intended-by-God witness.

Or, second (and having to build on the above), Jesus when saying "all men," was referring to how the world sees the Love that Christians have for each other, and they, those unbelievers in the world, will thus conclude that such are true Christians---if indeed such Love is ever again manifested by the church. But this does not mean that the Christian will necessarily know such Love to be genuine in either others or themselves. For, after all, many religious people in the world, like monks of Buddhism or any number of other religions, give away all their assets, commit their lives to acts of love---

But surely the unity of Love among the 100,000+ Christian denominations and sects and non-denoms, proves to the world that Christianity is the one true--- (satirical, of course).
--------------------

Well, when I shuffled, I just erased the largest part of my post, that which addressed all of what you said before the above that I commented on.

So I'll make it real short:

Just as good works can be either the works of James 2's litmus test, or mere coincidence and simply of the flesh, so too can alleged Fruits of the Spirit be nothing more than feigned exercises of soulish flesh.

Watching the Dahli Lama on TV the other night, he seemed to exemplify numerous Fruits of the Spirit. But since Fruits of the Spirit are just that, of God's Spirit and not man's soulish flesh, then we can knbow such was not the case, at least with Buddhists, for God's Spirit is only accessible by God's children, who are the born-again children via Christ's Blood and Faith and Name.

Perhaps this different example above will better fare as an adjunct to my claim: genuine Fruits of the Spirit are not detectable in the natural realm.

So I'll ask a second question---in addition to the similar first which is still unanswered here---how does the Christian know if the seeming Fruits of the Spirit they are manifesting, are actually that, from the Spirit, and not just so-called "well-meaning" exercises of soulish flesh, just as can be feigned by any human being dedicated to so doing??????????????

brother jim
brotherjim@mail.com

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Jenyar

You just said above that Jesus won't make it count if it's not done by a proper authority - the implication is that he will make it count if they are (that's what it means to give someone authority).

That is completely illogical. The reverse is not true, and you can't logically say it is.

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Jenyar

You're bifurcating. Please answer the question again: Who is it that makes them count?

Jesus makes proper-authority baptisms et al. count. Nobody else makes them count, and he doesn't make anything else count.

Originally Posted by Jenyar

You just said above that Jesus won't make it count if it's not done by a proper authority - the implication is that he will make it count if they are (that's what it means to give someone authority). If you can't be certain of their authority (i.e. ability) to decide whether an action counts or not - whether an ordinance is valid or a commandment has been properly followed - what make your priests and elders more authoritive than any other Christian on earth?

Christ won't make a proper-authority baptism count if the person is not fit for the baptism, ie he has not repented of his sins and does not want to take the name of Christ upon himself. What makes them more authoritative is that if the person does do all that, it will count.

[Jenyar]

Originally Posted by Aqualung

Jesus makes proper-authority baptisms et al. count. Nobody else makes them count, and he doesn't make anything else count.

You're just imbedding the problem deeper by using the words "proper-authority". My question is who is the proper authority - Christ or men? It used to be men, since the high priest used to be a man, and Aaron and his sons (who still hold the only proper Aaronic priesthood - since it depended on genealogy) were all mortal men.

You are in effect saying "Jesus makes the 'baptism-that-men-makes-count' count", hoping that nobody notices the internal contradiction.

When the Levitical priests had the authority, their authority was final - God gave them that duty, and them alone. They decided whether people were guilty or innocent, whether they lived or died. They literally judges Israel's deeds, and made atonement for their sins. They had to do this day after day, year after year, generation after generation.

Christ won't make a proper-authority baptism count if the person is not fit for the baptism, ie he has not repented of his sins and does not want to take the name of Christ upon himself. What makes them more authoritative is that if the person does do all that, it will count.

Now we're getting closer. If a person is fit for baptism, he is considered fit by Jesus no matter who performs it - even if the person has to perform it by themselves (as a Muslim woman once had to). The person performing it cannot make it either valid or invalid, since it doesn't depend on them. They're just obeying Christ's command to baptise. (And of course there should be agreement in a church as to who is qualified, but it's a decision made among believers, as they are lead by the Spirit - not an institution).

A Mormon told me that priesthood authority is lost when a person ceases to practice their faith righteously. Do the baptisms of all the people that were baptised by someone who lost his authority later, cease to be valid? I doubt it. There is no connection between the two - the connection is between Christ and the believer. Christ has the authority, and the believer's faith recognizes that authority.

[Jenyar]

Originally Posted by brotherjim

So I'll ask a second question---in addition to the similar first which is still unanswered here---how does the Christian know if the seeming Fruits of the Spirit they are manifesting, are actually that, from the Spirit, and not just so-called "well-meaning" exercises of soulish flesh, just as can be feigned by any human being dedicated to so doing??????????????

1. We know that we have come to know him [Christ] if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar... (1 John 2:3)
2. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. (1 John 2:5)
3. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother. (1 John 3:10)
4. This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. (1 John 3:16)
5. Let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. This then is how we know that we belong to the truth (1 John 3:18)
6. Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us. (1 John 3:24)
7. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God (1 John 4:2) *
8. They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood. (1 John 4:5)
9. This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. This is love for God: to obey his commands. (1 John 5:2) **
10. We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin (1 John 5:18) ***

* This is the one who came by water and blood - Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. (1 John 5:6)
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever -- the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. (John 14:16)

** 1 John 3:23
And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

*** 1 John 3:6
No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

Knowing Christ is an ancounter with God, not an encounter with man.

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Jenyar

My question is who is the proper authority - Christ or men?

Christ is the aurthority. But he's very picky as to what he will make count.

Originally Posted by Jenyar

If a person is fit for baptism, he is considered fit by Jesus no matter who performs it

True, he considers them fit. But he doesn't think the baptism counts without a priest doing it.

Originally Posted by Jenyar

A Mormon told me that priesthood authority is lost when a person ceases to practice their faith righteously. Do the baptisms of all the people that were baptised by someone who lost his authority later, cease to be valid?

Actually, I asked this question not too long ago. IT goes like this. A priest is given the keys to the priesthood when . . . well, when he becomes a priest. Those keys are never taken away, but hes just not using them righteously. So if he baptised someone, the baptism would still count, becuase he still has the keys. But, he will certainly get his just deserts for using the keys unrighteously.

[brotherjim]

Originally Posted by Jenyar

1. We know that . . . man.

Jaynar, rather than waste everyone's time, and so as to not clog the thread with extensive quotes and rebuttals, I'll comment in general:

Nothing you quoted answers either of my questions.

You did point out a couple good passages that can be used as a witness against someone who is not walking with the one true God---my own personal favorite is 1 John 2:3-5---but you have not told us how a Christian who was once genuinely born-again, can now know if:

1) the good works that are now coming forth from their life are indeed those referred to in such places as James 2 as being a necessary witness to the genuineness of their conversion (i.e., a result of God's Spirit and Laws supernaturally in/still in them)---as compared to it just being a coincidence that the person was once truly born-again, but is now just performing good works as an action of their fleshly soul, just as any so-called "well-meaning" person also does, and;

2) their outward expressions of love and faith and meekness and joy and so forth, are the actual supernatural manifestations of God's Spirit, the Fruits of Gal. 5---or is just feigned via the fleshly soul like any pious, religious, self-disciplined person also expresses.

(After all, even the heathen agapao love the "brethren" of their clicks/clubs/inner circles. And there are literally millions upon millions of religious people in this world who are not Christian, who outwardly sin far less than the masses of Christianity, and who pray more, who believe they are obeying some inner voice of God, who---)

brother jim
brotherjim@mail.com