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  #1  
Old 08-19-2012, 05:28 PM
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Question why hindus worship rama,krishna...?

hello,

why do so many hindus worship rama, krishna, vishnu even though they are not even mentioned in vedas, koran, bible? why they become so popular in hindusim?

Last edited by tumbleweed41; 08-19-2012 at 06:53 PM.. Reason: RUle 10
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  #2  
Old 08-19-2012, 06:12 PM
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You can think of God with a form
You can think of God with a name
You can think of God with some attributes
Why is one foolish and the other one not? If it helps, as stated, its good. There is idol worship in every religion. Some worship a man on a cross, some a book, some a name and some a picture. Since when is God limited to either of them? They all end up foolish in the end (since God is not that).
BUT its only foolish or inappropriate to the one who has gone beyond them. For him/her it would be wrong to fall back. Likewise its equally wrong to condemn "idol worship" for those who need it.

Compare to what Kena Upanishad says:
1.5 That which cannot be expressed by speech, but by which speech is expressed - That alone know as Brahman and not that which people here worship.
1.6 That which cannot be apprehended by the mind, but by which, they say, the mind is apprehended - That alone know as Brahman and not that which people here worship.
1.7 That which cannot be perceived by the eye, but by which the eye is perceived - That alone know as Brahman and not that which people here worship.
1.8 That which cannot he heard by the ear, but by which the hearing is perceived - That alone know as Brahman and not that which people here worship.
1.9 That which cannot be smelt by the breath, but by which the breath smells an object - That alone know as Brahman and not that which people here worship.
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  #3  
Old 08-19-2012, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Yuva View Post
hello,

why do so many hindus worship rama, krishna, vishnu even though they are not even mentioned in vedas, koran, bible? why they become so popular in hindusim?
Its really hard to say why things developed historically the way they did. Your guess is as good as mine. But now is now, and then was then. Things change. Things evolve. The Koran and Bible are not part of Hinduism, but yes the Vedas don't mention these particular names. Why? Well, its hard to say really. Why is the sky blue?
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Old 08-19-2012, 09:39 PM
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As a matter of fact Vishnu and Shiva(as Rudra) is mentioned in the Vedas, but in the Vedas Vishnu is a minor deity and Shiva is even lesser important. Later, during the Puranic phase and the establishment of the Trimurti dogma, Vishnu and Shiva are establised as monotheistic gods, and various sects start to mushroom around them. The reason for this is most likely political, the various kingdoms adopt their favourite god and establish religious control, with Shiva being preferred down South, and Vishnu in the North.

Krishna's case is very similar to Jesus. That is a personality cult spread about the historical Krishna, and Krishna was elevated to the status of Vishnu, being seen as a direct incarnation of Vishnu. In the same way Jesus is the incarnation of the logos. While, in Chriistianity there is only one son, i.e., one incarnation Jesus, in Vaishnavism due to beliefs in reincarnation there are several incarnations of Vishnu. The Vaishnavist dogmatists assembled their own list of the avatars Vishnu has taken so far, including in the list important historical personalties like Lord Rama, Buddha. This is why different sects have different lists.
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  #5  
Old 08-19-2012, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Yuva View Post
hello,

why do so many hindus worship rama, krishna, vishnu even though they are not even mentioned in vedas, koran, bible? why they become so popular in hindusim?
Please tell me how much of Vedas you have read, I am curious
If you are right about Krishna, Rama, Vishnu not being mentioned in Vedas, then I wonder why Krishna would say:

Bhagavad Gita 15.15:
sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo
mattaḥ smṛtir jānam apohanaṁ ca
vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo
vedānta-kṛd veda-vid eva cāham

I am seated in everyone’s heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas, I am to be known. Indeed, I am the compiler of Vedānta, and I am the knower of the Vedas.

Bhagavad Gita 15.18:
yasmāt kṣaram atīto ’ham
akṣarād api cottamaḥ
ato ’smi loke vede ca
prathitaḥ puruṣottamaḥ

Because I am transcendental, beyond both the fallible and the infallible, and because I am the greatest, I am celebrated both in the world and in the Vedas as that Supreme Person.

Last edited by Haridas; 08-19-2012 at 11:14 PM..
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  #6  
Old 08-19-2012, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Yuva View Post
hello,

why do so many hindus worship rama, krishna, vishnu even though they are not even mentioned in vedas, koran, bible? why they become so popular in hindusim?
Because Ram and Krishna were great heroes and lived and fought for dharma.

Vishnu, because its one of the attributes of the supreme OM, or Saguna Brahman.

Koran and Bible are not Hindu texts, Hindus don't have to adhere to these.

Vedas speak of Vishnu as one of the many attributes of Brahman (OM).

Vedas don't speak of Rama or Krishna because, both Rama and Krishna came after the Vedas were revealed.

Vedas are not prophecies of things to come, nor do they contain in them any history, that is why historical figures such as Rama and Krishna are not mentioned
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Mundaka Upanishad (3.1.6)

Last edited by Satyamavejayanti; 08-19-2012 at 09:56 PM..
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  #7  
Old 08-19-2012, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Surya Deva View Post
As a matter of fact Vishnu and Shiva(as Rudra) is mentioned in the Vedas, but in the Vedas Vishnu is a minor deity and Shiva is even lesser important. Later, during the Puranic phase and the establishment of the Trimurti dogma, Vishnu and Shiva are establised as monotheistic gods, and various sects start to mushroom around them. The reason for this is most likely political, the various kingdoms adopt their favourite god and establish religious control, with Shiva being preferred down South, and Vishnu in the North.
Dear Surya Deva,
I don't know what part of Vedas you are talking about. But clearly if one studies the Shurti Vedas collectively then one is guaranteed not to come to the conclusion as "Vishnu is minor deity". Heres just a few verses:

dādhāra dakṣamuttamamaharvidaṃ vrajaṃ ca viṣṇuḥ sakhivānaporṇute
"Viṣṇu hath power supreme and might that finds the day" (Rig Veda 1:156:4)

oṃ tad viṣṇoḥ paramam padam sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ
"All the suras (i.e., the devas) look always toward the feet of Lord Vishnu." (Rig Veda, 1:22:20)

asya devasya milhuso vaya visnoresasya prabhrthe havirbhih
vide hi rudro rudriyam mahitvam yasistam vartirasvinaviravat

"With offerings I propitiate the branches of this swift-moving God, the bounteous Vishnu. Hence Rudra gained his Rudra-strength: O Asvins, ye sought the house that hath celestial viands."(Rig Veda 7.40.5)

Savo deve eko Narayana na dwitiyacha kaschit
"There is only one God, Narayana and no second"(Yajur veda)

Also read Purusha Suktam. It is considered the essence of Vedas and it glorifies Narayana(Vishnu) as the Supreme Being(Purusha).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surya Deva View Post
Krishna's case is very similar to Jesus. That is a personality cult spread about the historical Krishna, and Krishna was elevated to the status of Vishnu, being seen as a direct incarnation of Vishnu. In the same way Jesus is the incarnation of the logos. While, in Chriistianity there is only one son, i.e., one incarnation Jesus, in Vaishnavism due to beliefs in reincarnation there are several incarnations of Vishnu. The Vaishnavist dogmatists assembled their own list of the avatars Vishnu has taken so far, including in the list important historical personalties like Lord Rama, Buddha. This is why different sects have different lists.
If you simply think of Krishna as a historical personality or some ordinary man, then heres what Krishna has to say:

Bhagavad Gita 9.11:
avajānanti māḿ mūḍhā
mānuṣīḿ tanum āśritam
paraḿ bhāvam ajānanto
mama bhūta-maheśvaram

Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature as the Supreme Lord of all that be.

Last edited by Haridas; 08-19-2012 at 11:16 PM..
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Old 08-19-2012, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Yuva View Post
hello,

why do so many hindus worship rama, krishna, vishnu even though they are not even mentioned in vedas, koran, bible? why they become so popular in hindusim?
The followers of Vedas were called as Aryans and they don't worship rama, krishna, vishnu etc. They worship Indra, Mithra, Prajapathi, Prana, Agni, Soma etc.

Hindus are not Aryans and they worship rama, krishna, vishnu etc etc. They became popular as we lost our divinity in us.

Last edited by Pleroma; 08-19-2012 at 11:01 PM..
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Old 08-20-2012, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Haridas View Post
Dear Surya Deva,
I don't know what part of Vedas you are talking about. But clearly if one studies the Shurti Vedas collectively then one is guaranteed not to come to the conclusion as "Vishnu is minor deity". Heres just a few verses:

dādhāra dakṣamuttamamaharvidaṃ vrajaṃ ca viṣṇuḥ sakhivānaporṇute
"Viṣṇu hath power supreme and might that finds the day" (Rig Veda 1:156:4)

oṃ tad viṣṇoḥ paramam padam sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ
"All the suras (i.e., the devas) look always toward the feet of Lord Vishnu." (Rig Veda, 1:22:20)

asya devasya milhuso vaya visnoresasya prabhrthe havirbhih
vide hi rudro rudriyam mahitvam yasistam vartirasvinaviravat

"With offerings I propitiate the branches of this swift-moving God, the bounteous Vishnu. Hence Rudra gained his Rudra-strength: O Asvins, ye sought the house that hath celestial viands."(Rig Veda 7.40.5)

Savo deve eko Narayana na dwitiyacha kaschit
"There is only one God, Narayana and no second"(Yajur veda)

Also read Purusha Suktam. It is considered the essence of Vedas and it glorifies Narayana(Vishnu) as the Supreme Being(Purusha).
I think you will find that you are ignoring the historical context here and treating the Vedas as a comprehensive, complete text that was revealed, in much the same way a Christian treats the bible or a Muslim treats the Quran. This is a religious point of view, and hence carries no weight with scholars.
You will find the scholarly consensus widely agrees that the Vedas were composed over long periods of time, with sections added over time by various authors, and these were done among meetings among the Brahmins. Hence we can see various levels of development in thought in the Vedas and can ascertain the chronology of the hymns.

Much like the Old testimant evolution of thought from polytheism gods to monotheistic god, the Vedas also develop from polythestic gods to monotheistic god, and finally pure monism in the Upanishads. The early Vedic culture mainly worshipped Indra, Agni, Mitra-Varuna, Soma, and this is evident because the highest number of hymns are addressed to them. There are are less than half a dozen addressed to Vishnu. Later, however when Vedic thought becomes more monotheistic, there does indeed seem to be a preference for 'Vishnu' to represent the supreme being. This is probably because even in early Vedic thought Vishnu was seen as all all pervading. However, it not unanimous, as some Vedic people prefer 'Shiva'

However, what cannot be denied is by the times of Vedanta Vedic thought had become purely monistic: Opting for the impersonal and abstract term 'Brahman' and only sparingly using the terms Vishnu or Shiva as epithets.
It should also not go amiss, that the Vedanta directly equate Brahman to the Atman over and over again, to the extent that Atman becomes the most important subject of devotion. The conclusion of the Vedanta is 'the self is the most beloved'

The Vedanta is very much like a new testimant of the Vedic people, bringing focus and emphasis on Jnana as opposed to Karma(in the ritual sense) However, it is strange how modern Hindus still seem to be stuck in the Old testimant. I don't think most Hindus are even aware of the Vedanta.





Quote:
If you simply think of Krishna as a historical personality or some ordinary man, then heres what Krishna has to say:

Bhagavad Gita 9.11:
avajānanti māḿ mūḍhā
mānuṣīḿ tanum āśritam
paraḿ bhāvam ajānanto
mama bhūta-maheśvaram

Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature as the Supreme Lord of all that be.
Again, this is a religious interpretation that treats the Gita as literally being spoken by godhead Krishna on the battlefield of Kurukshetra to prince Arjuna, remote viewed by Sanjaya, transcribed by Ved Vyassa, on dictation from the elephant god Ganesha.

Again, scholarly consensus differs, there is more evidence to show that the Gita was composed after the Mahabharata, and then inserted into it. There is clear evidence to show the Gita is a composition, as there are passages within verbatim taken from other sources. But I understand that the scholarly consensus maybe unacceptable to you, as you would probably literally like to believe the Gita is the gospel of Krishna, because of your faith in Krishna.

Many Hindus regard the Gita as their bible, but not me. The Gita is Smriti it is by definition man-made, remembered or recollected text. I only accept the Sruti as defining of my Aryan religion. As Pleroma says, most Hindus are not truly Aryan. Aryans did not worship Krishna.
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Old 08-20-2012, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surya Deva View Post
I think you will find that you are ignoring the historical context here and treating the Vedas as a comprehensive, complete text that was revealed, in much the same way a Christian treats the bible or a Muslim treats the Quran. This is a religious point of view, and hence carries no weight with scholars.
You will find the scholarly consensus widely agrees that the Vedas were composed over long periods of time, with sections added over time by various authors, and these were done among meetings among the Brahmins. Hence we can see various levels of development in thought in the Vedas and can ascertain the chronology of the hymns.
You may stick to the views of scholars. But that is not supported by Vedas. Shruti Vedas are eternal and therefore authoress. They were never in written form. The knowledge of shritu Vedas was passed down from one sage to another by the process of hearing until Srila Vyasadeva compiled them all and Ganesha produced them in written form.

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Originally Posted by Surya Deva View Post
Much like the Old testimant evolution of thought from polytheism gods to monotheistic god, the Vedas also develop from polythestic gods to monotheistic god, and finally pure monism in the Upanishads. The early Vedic culture mainly worshipped Indra, Agni, Mitra-Varuna, Soma, and this is evident because the highest number of hymns are addressed to them. There are are less than half a dozen addressed to Vishnu. Later, however when Vedic thought becomes more monotheistic, there does indeed seem to be a preference for 'Vishnu' to represent the supreme being. This is probably because even in early Vedic thought Vishnu was seen as all all pervading. However, it not unanimous, as some Vedic people prefer 'Shiva'
Let me tell you how the Shruti Vedas are structured. Shruti is divided into 3 sections:karma-kanda,upasana-kanda, and jnana-kanda. That's why Vedas are sometimes refereed as trai-vidya. The karma-kanda section talks about rituals which one to perform to gain some material benefit such as residence in heavenly planets, wealth etc. Upasana-kanda talks about worshiping demigods such as Indra, Agni etc. for the same purpose of material benefit but there is some partial application of knowledge. Jnana-kanda is about philosophical knowledge and the Upanishads fall into this category. Acaryas explain that the Vedas are structured like that because the bring the reader from level 0 to the higher levels. e.g. they slowly bring the reader from karma-kanda to upasana-kanda then at last to jnana-kanda. But the thing I am saying is that most of the Vedas are karma-kanda and upasana-kanda which deal with the 3 gunas and therefore there are mostly hymns of various demigods. This is confirmed by Bhagavad Gita:
trai-guṇya-viṣayā vedā
The Vedas deal mainly with the subject of the three modes of material nature.
Then Krishna tells Arjuna to transcend these modes and be established in the philosophy of Vedanta.
nistrai-guṇyo bhavārjuna
O Arjuna, become transcendental to these three modes.
But also note that all the hymns conducted to various demigods such as Indra, Agni etc. do glorify them but not in a manner that they are Supreme God. Vedas make it clear that Vishnu or Narayan is Supreme God as I have shown you the verses in previous verse.

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Originally Posted by Surya Deva View Post
However, what cannot be denied is by the times of Vedanta Vedic thought had become purely monistic: Opting for the impersonal and abstract term 'Brahman' and only sparingly using the terms Vishnu or Shiva as epithets.
It should also not go amiss, that the Vedanta directly equate Brahman to the Atman over and over again, to the extent that Atman becomes the most important subject of devotion. The conclusion of the Vedanta is 'the self is the most beloved'
There are 6 Vedanta schools and only one of them agree with what you said above(advaita). All the rest of the schools greatly refute the idea you mention above. So please don't claim that Vedanta is all about advaita because an unbiased reader will clearly see that advita clearly ignore the hundreds of bheda statements made in Upanishads.

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Originally Posted by Surya Deva View Post
Again, this is a religious interpretation that treats the Gita as literally being spoken by godhead Krishna on the battlefield of Kurukshetra to prince Arjuna, remote viewed by Sanjaya, transcribed by Ved Vyassa, on dictation from the elephant god Ganesha.
That is not an interpretation but exactly what Krishna said.

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Originally Posted by Surya Deva View Post
Again, scholarly consensus differs, there is more evidence to show that the Gita was composed after the Mahabharata, and then inserted into it. There is clear evidence to show the Gita is a composition, as there are passages within verbatim taken from other sources. But I understand that the scholarly consensus maybe unacceptable to you, as you would probably literally like to believe the Gita is the gospel of Krishna, because of your faith in Krishna.
The above is opinion of scholar not what Vedanta or acaryas have said. Human beings even though scholarly will posses 4 defects:
1.bhrama (he/she is illusioned)
2.pramada (he/she has the tendency to make errors)
3.aranapatava (he/she has imperfect senses)
4.vipralipsa (he/she has the tendency of cheating)
But these defect are not present in Vedanta since they are transcendental. Nor are in acaryas because they are God-realized. Bhagavad Gita is sometimes called Gitopanishad and here's reasoning acaryas give:
Bhagavad Gita has all the qualities of an Upanishad, it describes the essence of Vedic knowledge and it is spoken by the Supreme Lord Krishna Himself. All the acaryas of Vedanta schools say that Bhagavad Gita along with other texts makes the formation of Vedanta philosophy. So it is clearly to that you don't follow what the acaryas nor what Vedic literature has said but you are simply stuck to your or some scholar's opinion.

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Originally Posted by Surya Deva View Post
Many Hindus regard the Gita as their bible, but not me. The Gita is Smriti it is by definition man-made, remembered or recollected text. I only accept the Sruti as defining of my Aryan religion. As Pleroma says, most Hindus are not truly Aryan. Aryans did not worship Krishna.
Clearly once again you put your views above what Vedic literature says. You say that you accept shurti but if you accept shritu then you must accept smirti(Itihasas,Puranas) too. And here's why:

Brihadaranyaka Upanishad (4.5.11) : "The Rig, Yajur, Sama, and Atharva Vedas, the Itihasas, Puranas, Upanishads, verses and mantras, sutras, and the spiritual knowledge and explanations within, all emanate from the Supreme Being."
Brihadaranyaka Upanishad (2.4.10) "As from a fire kindled with wet fuel, clouds of smoke issue forth, so, my dear, verily, from this glorious great God has been breathed forth the Rig-veda, the Yajur-veda, the Sama-veda, Atharvanagirasa, Itihasas, Puranas, science of knowledge, mystic doctrines or Upanishads, pithy verses, aphorisms, elucidations and commentaries. From Him, indeed, are all these breathed forth."
Chāndogya Upaniṣad (7.1.4): the Purāṇas and Mahābhārata, generally known as histories, are mentioned as the fifth Veda.
Now here's some proof from smriti itself:
The Mahabharata (Adi Parva 1.267) explains the necessity of understanding Vedic knowledge with the help of the Puranas: "One should expand and accept the meaning of the Vedas with the help of the Itihasas and Puranas. The Vedas are afraid of being mistreated by one who is ignorant of the Itihasas and Puranas."
Prabhasa-khanda (2.93) section of the Skanda Purana, where it is said, "I consider the Puranas equal to the Vedas."
So clearly Vedic literature itself proves that smriti are not man made but are part of Vedas.

Also I see that a lot of people think that Krishna is just someone newly worshiped and he was not worshiped during ancient times. BUT THIS IS NOT SUPPORTED BY VEDIC LITERATURE BUT SIMPLY AN OPINION. According to Srimad Bhagavatam Lord Brahma the creator of beings was born from the lotus flower coming from the navel of Maha-Vishnu. Brahma was confused and asked to himself who is is his creator, why is he here, what is he. Then he did penance to understand these things. Krishna being pleased with Him appeared before him and said:
aham evasam evagre
nanyad yat sad-asat param
pascad aham yad etac ca
yo 'vasishyeta so 'smy aham
Brahma, it is I, the Personality of Godhead, who was existing before the creation, when there was nothing but Myself. Nor was there the material nature, the cause of this creation. That which you see now is also I, the Personality of Godhead, and after annihilation what remains will also be I, the Personality of Godhead.
Then afterwards Brahma conducts a prayer known as Brahma Samhita. There he clearly says:
īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ
sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ
anādir ādir govindaḥ
sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam
Kṛṣṇa who is known as Govinda is the Supreme Godhead. He has an eternal blissful spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and He is the prime cause of all causes.
And he says:
govindam ādi-puruṣaḿ tam ahaḿ bhajāmi
I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord.
So it's clear from here that Krishna is the very first person worshiped and in the time of material creation.

Last edited by Haridas; 08-20-2012 at 12:55 PM..
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