I used to be a hindu

[Wannabe Yogi]

Originally Posted by Shântoham

pranām WBY

only the Vedas do not mention homosexuality. The Sanskrit literature uses certain terms to describe what is frequently referred to as the “third gender” (tṛtiya prakṛti). Something that is in between man and woman. It’s ambiguous terminology at best.
That verse of the Rāmāyaṇa looks suspicious. Without Sanskrit is hard to tell. From which Rāmāyaṇa is supposedly from?

I was thinking that it could not be from Valmiki Ramayana because of the worship comments. Valmiki tends to put an emphasis on Him as the perfect King and lacks statements of Rama's divinity. So it must be from Tulasidas or Adhyatma Ramayana from the Brahmananda Purana or something like that.

[Wannabe Yogi]

I was also thinking that maybe they translated third gender as gay

[Jainarayan]

Originally Posted by Wannabe Yogi

I was also thinking that maybe they translated third gender as gay

Which is sometimes not far off the mark, as I understand hijra. So it could refer to anything that was not hetero. Another wild guess on my part. But if so, it underscores that non-heterosexuality was not anything more than "oh yeah, that's my Aunt Anthony and Uncle Edith".

[Vrindavana Das]

Originally Posted by Wannabe Yogi

This is true.

I see that all unanimously agree that all scriptures have prescribed a punishment (mild/harsh) for homosexuality. So, we can safely conclude "it is not acceptable in religious texts." So, where is the doubt. You can turn around the question only to avoid an explanation of "it is acceptable."

Let me ask a simple question, if today, Supreme Court orders an insignificant punishment of 7 days imprisonment to someone for an offence like eve-teasing.

What is the message, that the educated society of today takes home from this?

1. Because it is an "insignificant punishment", so eve-teasing is "acceptable."
2. Because eve-teasing is "punishable", so it is "not acceptable".

Secondly:

I will take an example from the Manu Smriti;

If a stri [adult woman] was found having sexual relations with a kanya [unmarried girl], for instance, her "head should be shaved immediately or two of her fingers should be cut off, and she should be made to ride on a donkey.":

Ask that woman, if life is worth living any more, after that suffering, physical & mental pain & humiliation, in front of the whole wide world, that she knows of.

If two kanya have sex, each "must be fined two hundred (panas), pay the double of her (nuptial) fee, and receive ten (lashes with a) rod."


Ask those girls, who are dependent, don't earn anything, what 200 panas & twice of their nuptual fee means. Ask any girl, what does a loss of marriage (no one will marry them ever, for sure), mean. Has their whole life not become a punishment.

For Brahmanas and twice-born men, "causing an injury to a priest, smelling wine or things that are not to be smelled, crookedness, and sexual union with a man are traditionally said to cause loss of caste"

Ask a respectable person of the society, what does it mean to be humiliated and lose his caste and all respect in the society. Is life worth even living anymore after this.

Why believe my words, here is what Lord Kṛṣṇa says:

akīrtiḿ cāpi bhūtāni
kathayiṣyanti te 'vyayām
sambhāvitasya cākīrtir
maraṇād atiricyate

People will always speak of your infamy, and for a respectable person, dishonor is worse than death.[B.G. 2.34]

If a rich person is fined 200 panas, THAT is a small punishment.
If an outcast is humiliated in public, THAT is a small punishment.

It may look that the punishments are mild, but they are designed in such a way that the person who undergoes them, knows the severity.

Very important point.

Dharma exists for the satisfaction of Supreme Lord. It is the path of surrender to Supreme Lord. Not any whimsical activity can be termed Dharma, which is for our exploitation and sense gratification.

High Dharmic standard means to accept, acknowledge, follow and to teach the others true meaning of Dharma. True path of surrender to Lord.

Any activity that promotes ignorance, deceit, cheating and sense gratification in the name of Dhrama is Adharma.

Only Dharma, that exists for the satisfaction of Supreme Lord can truly award happiness, bliss & peace.

Adharma, that which does not exist for satisfaction of Supreme Lord, but for our sense gratification, will only cause harm, disharmony & miseries in the society.

[Shuddhasattva]

Out of context, as usual. Most of us deny the application of the manu smriti. You may want to keep reading, and avoid just grabbing whatever you can to prop up an argument. There are barbaric laws in there that simply cannot be followed.

The punishments are, in context, for violating the virginity of unmarried girls. There are equal if not greater punishments for men who do the same to girls. It's not really about the homosex component.

[Wannabe Yogi]

Originally Posted by Vrindavana Das

I will take an example from the Manu Smriti;

Here are some more wonderful quotes from the Manu Smriti. Please answer my questions.

3/8. One should not marry women who has have reddish hair, redundant parts of the body [such as six fingers], one who is often sick, one without hair or having excessive hair and one who has red eyes.

Do you believe it is wrong to marry someone with red hair or a physical deformity ?

A Brahman, true defender of his class, should not have his meals in the company of his wife and even avoid looking at her. Furthermore, he should not look towards her when she is having her meals or when she sneezes/yawns.– 4/43

Do you believe it is wrong for a man to eat dinner with his wife.

Girls are supposed to be in the custody of their father when they are children, women must be under the custody of their husband when married and under the custody of her son as widows. In no circumstances is she allowed to assert herself independently.5/151

Do you believe that a woman should be allowed any independence at any time.

Women have no divine right to perform any religious ritual, nor make vows or observe a fast. Her only duty is to obey and please her husband and she will for that reason alone be exalted in heaven. – 5/158.

Do you believe that women should not be allowed to do any religious rituals.

In case women enjoy sex with a man from a higher caste, the act is not punishable. But on the contrary, if women enjoy sex with lower caste men, she is to be punished and kept in isolation. 8/364

Do you believe this

In case a woman tears the membrane [hymen] of her Vagina, she shall instantly have her head shaved or two fingers cut off and made to ride on Donkey.– 8/369.

I love this rule how about you. Would you make your sister ride a donkey ? Would you chop off her fingers ? Would you use a meat cleaver ? Is this the high standard of Dharma you are talking about in the following quote.

Originally Posted by Vrindavana Das

High Dharmic standard means to accept, acknowledge, follow and to teach the others true meaning of Dharma. True path of surrender to Lord.

Do you really see the Code Manu is the truth of Dharma?

Shall I go on ? Get the idea ? The Manu Smriti is full of crap !!!

[Wannabe Yogi]

Originally Posted by Shuddhasattva

There are barbaric laws in there that simply cannot be followed.

It is the duty of all husbands to exert total control over their wives. Even physically weak husbands must strive to control their wives.--Manu Smriti 9.6.

How is this barbaric. I think every husband should join a Gym and take Kung Fu before he gets married. That way he can achieve total control over his wife.

[Vrindavana Das]

Originally Posted by Wannabe Yogi

Here are some more wonderful quotes from the Manu Smriti. Please answer my questions.

3/8. One should not marry women who has have reddish hair, redundant parts of the body [such as six fingers], one who is often sick, one without hair or having excessive hair and one who has red eyes.

Do you believe it is wrong to marry someone with red hair or a physical deformity ?

A Brahman, true defender of his class, should not have his meals in the company of his wife and even avoid looking at her. Furthermore, he should not look towards her when she is having her meals or when she sneezes/yawns.– 4/43

Do you believe it is wrong for a man to eat dinner with his wife.

Girls are supposed to be in the custody of their father when they are children, women must be under the custody of their husband when married and under the custody of her son as widows. In no circumstances is she allowed to assert herself independently.5/151

Do you believe that a woman should be allowed any independence at any time.

Women have no divine right to perform any religious ritual, nor make vows or observe a fast. Her only duty is to obey and please her husband and she will for that reason alone be exalted in heaven. – 5/158.

Do you believe that women should not be allowed to do any religious rituals.

In case women enjoy sex with a man from a higher caste, the act is not punishable. But on the contrary, if women enjoy sex with lower caste men, she is to be punished and kept in isolation. 8/364

Do you believe this

In case a woman tears the membrane [hymen] of her Vagina, she shall instantly have her head shaved or two fingers cut off and made to ride on Donkey.– 8/369.

I love this rule how about you. Would you make your sister ride a donkey ? Would you chop off her fingers ? Would you use a meat cleaver ? Is this the high standard of Dharma you are talking about in the following quote.

Do you really see the Code Manu is the truth of Dharma?

Shall I go on ? Get the idea ? The Manu Smriti is full of crap !!!

You have left the original topic. All the points, supporting which I picked one example, from one scripture, have been completely left out. Do you see that?

The actual point, on homosexuality being "acceptable" in scriptures still stands unanswered. I quoted one example to show that severity of punishment even in Manu Smriti, apart from Christianity and Islamism....all of them are out-of-context and place...all religions, except what "I believe" is correct, I guess!

You do not seem to believe the scriptures. Or maybe, just the ones you want to believe. This is the easiest thing...if it cannot be disproved..deny it!

[Vrindavana Das]

Manu Smriti is based on the Vedic way of life. We want to hold the Vedic civilization in contempt, disbelieve the scriptures AND want to be called Hindus. In fact we want to do all of it BECAUSE we are Hindus. Do you see the irony!

Could you tell me "what" makes one a Hindu?

[Odion]

Originally Posted by Wannabe Yogi

It is the duty of all husbands to exert total control over their wives. Even physically weak husbands must strive to control their wives.--Manu Smriti 9.6.

How is this barbaric. I think every husband should join a Gym and take Kung Fu before he gets married. That way he can achieve total control over his wife.

Manu clearly never met my wife. If I tried to have total control of her, things wouldn't end very well. For me.