Christians--Every human was born a sinner. (Jesus, ritual, moral, reject)

[Katzpur]

Hi, James.

Yes, of course, I remember you. Was it on Timebombers? As before, I'm sure we'll be able to get along well, in spite of our differences of opinion.

Originally Posted by IacobPersul

It's what I said it was, although there's a little more to it. We believe that baptism is death and rebirth in Christ, as a Mystery but really, not as a symbol (we don't hold with Protestant ideas of symbolic sacraments). As such it doesn't matter in the slightest if you are old enough to appreciate it when it happens or not, the effect is the same.

We (LDS) totally agree that baptism is a required ordinance. It is definitely not merely symbolic. However, the scriptures seem to me to be pretty clear that baptism is to be received after one believes and is able to choose for himself whether he wants to be a part of Christ's Church. Almost without exception, the mention of baptism is within the context of a believer wishing to enter into a covenant relationship with Jesus Christ. So, I see awareness of what baptism really is as being a crucially important part of the sacrament.

Kathryn

[blueman]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I essentially agree with everything you have said. The one question I have for you is this: Do you believe we are held accountable for what Adam did? In other words, if a day-old infant dies, do you believe he dies a sinner and will be punished as being a sinner?

Katzpur, here is an earlier post on the subject which should provide clarity. I think we are accountable because we are descendants of man and woman, who both sin and from which sin originated. But here is an earlier reply which I'm copying to you in reponse to the infant question:

I don't want to rehash the whole baptism thread, because you know I put my stock in "baptism of the Spirit" as the process which washes away and redeems our sin, as opposed the physical ceremony which symbolizes our new life in the Spirit. I do agree with the premise that although we are born in sin (according to my beliefs), God's grace is extended to those who otherwise do not have the mental capacity to comprehend the gift of salvation (infants, people who are mentally incapacitated from birth, etc.). For those who have all of there mental capacity, there does reach a "point of accountability" for our sinful nature and being able to comprehend and commit to gift of salvation and I believe God makes that known to us and it then comes down to the free will that He's given us which will determine ultimately a decision one makes to accept or reject His gift of salvation.

[oneWord]

ok, while I'm still lol, is anybody here old enough to have children? Does anybody really believe that we are born without sin? It's kind of evident - 3-6 months old - big time, and then at 8-12 months, the 'lip' comes.....whose has sinless children? Show me one? I have 5 - (they are so cute though!), ok, it's hard to believe the first few weeks, but after that.............................................. ....
lol, what a hoot!

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by oneWord

ok, while I'm still lol, is anybody here old enough to have children? Does anybody really believe that we are born without sin? It's kind of evident - 3-6 months old - big time, and then at 8-12 months, the 'lip' comes.....whose has sinless children? Show me one? I have 5 - (they are so cute though!), ok, it's hard to believe the first few weeks, but after that.............................................. ....
lol, what a hoot!

OneWord,

I'm not only old enough to have children, I'm old enough to have grandchildren. What do you believe sin is, anyway? Would a 9-month old baby knocking his cereal bowl off the highchair and onto the floor constitute sin in your mind? Sure, it inconveniences mom or dad, but how much does a 9-month old baby really understand about honoring his father and his mother?

Sin is the intentional violation of a moral law. Until a person is old enough to understand the difference between right and wrong, I don't see how it is even possible for him to sin. Yes, he can disobey, but I would even argue that disobedience is not "sin" until a child has reached the age when he can be held accountable for his choices.

So, in answer to your question, yes, I absolutely do believe we are born without sin.

Kathryn

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by oneWord

ok, while I'm still lol, is anybody here old enough to have children? Does anybody really believe that we are born without sin? It's kind of evident - 3-6 months old - big time, and then at 8-12 months, the 'lip' comes.....whose has sinless children? Show me one? I have 5 - (they are so cute though!), ok, it's hard to believe the first few weeks, but after that.............................................. ....
lol, what a hoot!

How can you sin if you don't even know what you are doing? Sin implies that you know what you are doing is wrong. Would you think it a sin for a severly retarded person to lie? I wouldn't. But lying is a sin for me. because i know it's wrong

[Jenyar]

How can you sin if you don't even know what you are doing? Sin implies that you know what you are doing is wrong. Would you think it a sin for a severly retarded person to lie? I wouldn't. But lying is a sin for me. because i know it's wrong

Not quite:

Romans 5:12-13
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

Something is still wrong, whether we know it or not, which is why Israel had to make atonement for unintentional sins as well (see Numbers 15). Consider the following laws:

Lev. 4:13: If the whole Israelite community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, even though the community is unaware of the matter, they are guilty.
Lev. 4:22: When a leader sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the commands of the LORD his God, he is guilty.
Lev. 4:27: If a member of the community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, he is guilty.

[michel]

Originally Posted by Jenyar

Not quite:

Romans 5:12-13

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

Something is still wrong, whether we know it or not, which is why Israel had to make atonement for unintentional sins as well (see Numbers 15). Consider the following laws:

Lev. 4:13: If the whole Israelite community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, even though the community is unaware of the matter, they are guilty.

Lev. 4:22: When a leader sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the commands of the LORD his God, he is guilty.
Lev. 4:27: If a member of the community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, he is guilty.

Jenyar; I don't deny the passages you have quoted above; but do you really believe that a Loving God would punish someone for 'erring' without realizing it ? How about the insane ?

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Jenyar

Romans 5:12-13
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

If you don't know you're sinning, it's not a sin.

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Jenyar

Something is still wrong, whether we know it or not, which is why Israel had to make atonement for unintentional sins as well (see Numbers 15).

It was unintentional. It wasn't that they didn't know that what they were doing was a sin. It's that they did something that they knew was a sin on accident.

[Jenyar]

Originally Posted by Aqualung

If you don't know you're sinning, it's not a sin.

It says sin is not taken into account - not that it isn't still sin (sin was in the world even before the law was given). That's why "death reigned" even over those who did not break any commands; without sin there would have been no death.

Originally Posted by Miche;

Jenyar; I don't deny the passages you have quoted above; but do you really believe that a Loving God would punish someone for 'erring' without realizing it ? How about the insane ?

I have a problem with it when we assume we know what "a loving God" would or would not do. We only know what God does by what He did, and what He wants by what He tells us. No, God did not take sin into account when it is done in ignorance (that's why Paul told the Athenians "in the past God overlooked such ignorance" - Acts 17:30), but neither does He allow us to stay ignorant for very long. When we realize we have sinned, it's already done, and consequences don't ask questions. If hell - eternal separation from God - is a consequence of ignorance, then being ignorant is the worst sin, not the safest one. One might say God came to save us from ignorance.

Few people willingly do things that would cause their death - much less God's wrath and eternal death. But they do things that make them guilty and separates them from God out of ignorance - even our innocence isn't white as snow. Paul said, "My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me" (1 Cor. 4:4). So it's to our advantage to know that we are condemned by our sins even when they were done out of ignorance, that every religious ordinance and ritual that tries to please God is just an expression of our predicament, not a solution for it - and certainly not of any lasting merit.

Rom 3.19-20 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

By being convicted of sins we didn't even know we committed (we would have to be Christ himself to know everything that makes us guilty - after the ten commandments, God exposed another 613 areas of sin and gave laws about them - and the Jews were able to identify thousands more from there in their commentaries). But God was able to turn this into the favour of those who would remain fathful to Him:

Rom. 3:21-26 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished — he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.