Christians--Every human was born a sinner. (Jesus, ritual, moral, reject)

[Scuba Pete]

Ezekial 18:19 "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him. 21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? NIV

God does not hold Adam's sin against us. No, we are more than capable of sinning all on our own and are therefore without excuse. BTW, it amazes me that there are not many scriptures proffered as support for one's beliefs. The Bible is rich with examples and verses that help us to understand our hearts and just what God wants from us. Doncha think?

[Victor]

ND, this is talking about 2 men who are fully conscience and capable of knowing right from wrong. In this sense I agree. The process of knowing right from wrong has already begun for these 2 and therefore is not a good example of what we are talking about. How about showing and example where the son is not yet born or something like that?

~Victor

[Scuba Pete]

I don't think I understand. It does not matter IF the son is cognizent... he is responsible for HIS actions.

[Original Freak]

Perhaps I'm mistaken but isn't the pain of Childbirth a punishment to women for the Original Sin of eating an apple?

(Genesis 3:16) - "To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you shall bring forth children; Yet your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you."

...and death a punishment to both of them?

Romans 5:12-19 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

[Scuba Pete]

OF,

Sin has consequences as well as punishment. Sometimes those who are innocent share in the consequences (car accidents, etc). So no, the pain of childbirth is not a punishment, but the consequense of not having a perfect communion with God.

It is not readily apparent if physical death was already present. This is referring to a "spiritual death", which was a separation from God and fairly immediate. This happens to EVERYONE once they sin.

[James the Persian]

Originally Posted by Original Freak

Perhaps I'm mistaken but isn't the pain of Childbirth a punishment to women for the Original Sin of eating an apple?



...and death a punishment to both of them?

Well, not in Orthodox theology it isn't. We don't believe in inherited guilt in the way that Bl. Augustine described, which is what people usually mean by Original Sin. We do, however, suffer the consequences of that sin in that we are mortal and have a propensity to sin. We don't believe that infants are born sinners (but we do practice infant baptism - baptism is much more than just a washing away of sins, it's a death and rebirth in Christ which is why it can only be performed once).

In our view, in committing the 'Original Sin' Adam and Eve turned from God who is the source of all life and in doing so the natural consequence was that they became mortal. This was not a punishment by God but a self-wrought condemnation. It is good to note that when God warned them not to eat the fruit He said 'for in that day you will surely die' not 'if you do I'll kill you' - there's a big difference there.

In becoming mortals in a fallen world cut off from God, Adam and Eve acquired a tendency to sin and it became much more difficult to live a holy and God-pleasing life. As we are of the same substance as they are (and in the same situation) we inherited the same failings, but it as inappropriate to say that we are being punished for their sin as it would be to say that a crack baby is being punished for its mother's drug abuse. It suffers the consequences, true, but nobody is punishing it and it is guilty of nothing. The consequences are simply the natural and tragic result of the mother's abuse.

James

P.S.
And where do people get this strange idea that the forbidden fruit was an apple from? I've never understood that.

[Original Freak]

Sin has consequences as well as punishment. Sometimes those who are innocent share in the consequences (car accidents, etc). So no, the pain of childbirth is not a punishment, but the consequense of not having a perfect communion with God.

so the innocent suffer a consiquence placed on them by god for being imperfect, when in fact it's impossible to be perfect by his design? By using drugs to null the pain of birth are we then disobeying god?

It is not readily apparent if physical death was already present. This is referring to a "spiritual death", which was a separation from God and fairly immediate. This happens to EVERYONE once they sin.

So it's a metaphorical statement meaning no one will ever really know what god's punishment truly was and one can only debate and speculate.

[Bright-ness' Shadow]

While the "out of faith" posts have been civil and not overly agressive, I would remind posters here that Same Faith Debates means what it says.