Christians--Every human was born a sinner. (Jesus, ritual, moral, reject)

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by michel

Katzpur,

Isn't this the whole point of Baptism - the washing away of our sins ?

Yes, which is why I don't believe in infant baptism. One has no need of the remission of sins until one is capable of understanding what sin is. Once we have reached an age where we are accountable for our behavior, we will undoubtedly sin. It is at this point that the choice to be baptized comes into play.

[true blood]

Every human is born (spiritually) in sin, meaning a type of alienation from God. Sin is not some kind of beast others make it out to be. It is a deviation from a law. Biblically, Adam and Eve broke a law and as a result they were separated from God. Therefore the entire legacy of mankind would be conceived in such a separated state.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Yes, which is why I don't believe in infant baptism. One has no need of the remission of sins until one is capable of understanding what sin is. Once we have reached an age where we are accountable for our behavior, we will undoubtedly sin. It is at this point that the choice to be baptized comes into play.

Katzpur, do you think you would of eaten from the tree? I think all of us would. Knowing me I probably would of gotten more then one apple and perhaps even made an apple pie.
The point is that you nor I would of done any better and being a baby doesn't take that away. We have become innately weak in our own desires and therefore we would of alienated ourselves from God without the help of Adam of Eve. Unless you claim to be sinless and perfect.

~Victor

[blueman]

The concept of being born in sin recognizes that as a descendant of Adam and Eve, sin became part of our human nature from day one. It was natural to us and part of our inner flesh. The occurance of this nature did not necessarily materialize as infants, but as we matured emotionally, mentally and physically, our true nature did evolve and come to light. If that wasn't the case, there wouldn't have been a need for a redeemer to come into the equation, rebuilding the bridge to a relationship with God. In Genesis 3:15, God said to the serpent (Satan): And I will put emnity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head and you will strike his heel.

This was the first prophecy of Jesus Christ coming to redeem man and how God's plan for salvation would separate nations, families and people as a result.

[blueman]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Yes, which is why I don't believe in infant baptism. One has no need of the remission of sins until one is capable of understanding what sin is. Once we have reached an age where we are accountable for our behavior, we will undoubtedly sin. It is at this point that the choice to be baptized comes into play.

I don't want to rehash the whole baptism thread, because you know I put my stock in "baptism of the Spirit" as the process which washes away and redeems our sin, as opposed the physical ceremony which symbolizes our new life in the Spirit. I do agree with the premise that although we are born in sin (according to my beliefs), God's grace is extended to those who otherwise do not have the mental capacity to comprehend the gift of salvation (infants, people who are mentally incapacitated from birth, etc.). For those who have all of there mental capacity, there does reach a "point of accountability" for our sinful nature and being able to comprehend and commit to gift of salvation and I believe God makes that known to us and it then comes down to the free will that He's given us which will determine ultimately a decision one makes to accept or reject His gift of salvation.

[blueman]

Originally Posted by Montalban

It is a western Christian concept that we are all held accountable for this sin.

However the Orthodox church talks of "Original Guilt". That is, Adam and Eve let sin into the world, and as a result, we do sin. However this is different from the western "Original Sin" concept that you are right to mention.

But in response to that, how would you sin if it wasn't already part of your nature? Would you imply that it is a "learned behavior"?

[Victor]

Originally Posted by blueman

The concept of being born in sin recognizes that as a descendant of Adam and Eve, sin became part of our human nature from day one. It was natural to us and part of our inner flesh. The occurance of this nature did not necessarily materialize as infants, but as we matured emotionally, mentally and physically, our true nature did evolve and come to light. If that wasn't the case, there wouldn't have been a need for a redeemer to come into the equation, rebuilding the bridge to a relationship with God. In Genesis 3:15, God said to the serpent (Satan): And I will put emnity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head and you will strike his heel.

This was the first prophecy of Jesus Christ coming to redeem man and how God's plan for salvation would separate nations, families and people as a result.

Well said blueman.

~Victor

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Victor

Katzpur, do you think you would of eaten from the tree? I think all of us would. Knowing me I probably would of gotten more then one apple and perhaps even made an apple pie.
The point is that you nor I would of done any better and being a baby doesn't take that away. We have become innately weak in our own desires and therefore we would of alienated ourselves from God without the help of Adam of Eve. Unless you claim to be sinless and perfect.

~Victor

Yes, I'm afraid I probably would have eaten from the tree and I, too, have a weakness for apple pie.

I also agree that we are "innately weak in our own desires," as you said. But, I don't believe we are sinners until we sin. I believe we are born pure and clean, but with an inherited propensity to sin. I certainly have never claimed to be sinless and perfect as an adult, but I believe you and I both were sinless and perfect at birth. Since you believe otherwise, what sin do you believe you were born having committed?

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by blueman

The concept of being born in sin recognizes that as a descendant of Adam and Eve, sin became part of our human nature from day one. It was natural to us and part of our inner flesh. The occurance of this nature did not necessarily materialize as infants, but as we matured emotionally, mentally and physically, our true nature did evolve and come to light. If that wasn't the case, there wouldn't have been a need for a redeemer to come into the equation, rebuilding the bridge to a relationship with God. In Genesis 3:15, God said to the serpent (Satan): And I will put emnity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head and you will strike his heel.

This was the first prophecy of Jesus Christ coming to redeem man and how God's plan for salvation would separate nations, families and people as a result.

I essentially agree with everything you have said. The one question I have for you is this: Do you believe we are held accountable for what Adam did? In other words, if a day-old infant dies, do you believe he dies a sinner and will be punished as being a sinner?