Christian: Faith and Good Works (Jesus, moral, Earth, gospel)

[precept]

[quote]Doc, I suspect that you are not referring to Paul but James Chapter 2, the latter half.

Regardless, that passage to which I now refer is a litmus test and not something we as Evangelical/charismatic Christians conjure up or balance in our walk or the like.

James is simply warning us that if goods works are not being dictated to us by the Holy Ghost on an ongoing basis, resulting in our obedience to do them, then we are mistaken to believe that our faith is the needed Faith of God, but is rather just a soulish faith like we have that our car will start when we insert and turn the ignition key--this latter, lesser type of faith never able to save the soul.

See how, at least in the correct translations of KJV and NKJV and whatever others, James 2:1 begins by informing us it is the Faith of Jesus which will then be discussed--a Fruit of the Spirit, not human faith.]/QUOTE]

BrotherJim....your statement..."The faith of Jesus---a Fruit of the Spirit..." is not scriptural in any translation of the bible. The bible states and clearly so that the "Faith of Jesus"... IS the "Righteousness of God". Or everyone who "Believe in the righteousness of God...also believe in His Son...and hence have the same faith that the Son has in the Father. This is known as the "Faith of Jesus". Romans 3:22

Romans 3:3 argues the point on the side of "unbelief" OR side opposite....[u]...."DID SOME NOT BELIEVE? SHALL THEIR UNBELIEF MAKE THE "FAITH OF GOD"/"FAITH OF JESUS" without effect?

Faith in God is related to BELIEVING THE PROMISES OF GOD THAT ONE DAY SINFUL HUMANS WILL BE WITH HIM IN HIS HEAVENLY ABODE. This is what the children of God HOPE for and is called "the Blessed hope" Faith according to Paul is the "substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"....Hebrews 11:1. The "substance of things hoped for"...is the hope of salvation....the "evidence of things not seen"...is no one can very the truth of this belief re the story of redemption....BUT YET THE CHILD OF GOD BELIEVES IT TO BE TRUE AND VERIFIABLE....."That is Faith" It is this faith in God, the "faith of Jesus"[only through Jesus can the plan of salvation come true] It is this faith in God that leads the child of God to engage in "works of righteousness" or engage in the same identical "Righteousness of salvation" as is "God's Righteousness" but done in the sinful human context and effective only by obtaining the Righteousnes of God through Christ.

Faith has little or nothing to do with "having faith that you are going to get a "new car". Such a desire for a "new car" may have more to do with coveteousness and envy, than faith. A true child of God is more interested in living godly in a world of sin; thus showing in verity that his faith in God, believed through the faith that Jesus had in his Father, will make him live as Jesus' faith in His Father, made Jesus also to live a godly life in a world of sin. By living this life dedicated in love to serving God, the true child of God demonstrates the "faith of Jesus". In the end God rewards His children as He sees fit. If a bicycle is His choice for your transportation; the true child of God is accepting of this mode of transportation in just the same way as if a "motor car" was God's choice for him...[His mode of transportation chosen for His Son the Creator of the Universe was the common "donkey", my case in point].

The people in scripture who were rewarded with miraculous works on the basis of their faith in Jesus....Only had their faith rewarded because they believed and sincerely so that Jesus was indeed God's Son and Messiah as sent by God to humanity. Again this belief identifies the "Righteousness of God" or His right "workings" in the redemption of humanity...and it is conjoined with the Faith Jesus had/"faith of Jesus" in His Father's "Righteous works" to redeem humanity.



precept

[intruth]

You cannot separate faith from the works which it produces. In Rev 19:7-8, it is the fine linen of the bride of Christ- the righteous deeds of the saints.

It is the "wedding garment" mentioned in Matt 22.

Those who are in Christ will have the fruit of the Spirit producing His works in and through them. We were created in Christ Jesus for "good works" which God prepared beforehand that we would walk in them.

These works grow as fruit on the vine, the result of faith and growing in Christ.

Just as Jesus remained in the Father, and the Father in Him "does the works", so it is with us, as we remain united in Christ through our obedience to His will, the Spirit within us "does the works"-

"the works which I do you shall do also, and greater works than these..."

If good works are not being produced in us, we must not be walking in obedience to God, for the result of obedience is righteous acts:

Joh 3:21 But anyone who lives by the truth comes to the light, so that HIS WORKS may be shown to be accomplished BY GOD." Faith is impossible to separate from it's fruit IMO.

Bob~

"Within our obedience His will is worked through us, and where His will is done, there has His kingdom come"

[brotherjim]

It has been the great lie of the church to teach that Fruits of the Spirit are gradually grown in the Christian--really nothing more than self-justification for their absence in those teaching it.

Even modern Bible translations have perverted the Truth, them taking what should be "temperance" or whatever similar (Gal. 5:23), and instead making it to read "self-control," such being an impossibility, the term being mutually exclusive to the word Spirit.

In other words, something is either of self/soulish, or it is of God/the Spirit--not both.

God does not need to gradually develop, neither gradually manifest Himself, as those attesting to the instantaneousness of the New Birth know. Fruiots of the Spirit are manifested by God's Spirit--not performed by man--as the Christian gets out of and stays out of God's Way. ". . . I must decrease."

'He must increase. . . ."

Each of the Fruits of the Spirit are given in a small "measure" (KJV) when we are born-again. When exercised and found insufficient, God is waiting in the wings to instantly give us, usually one at a time, each of the Fruits in all their perfect fullness and miraculous manifestation. It's 100% God at work; the Christian is commanded to rest from their labours.

Many personal testimonies from those who have instantly received the fullness of God's Love, for example, can be read on the site www.EnterHisRest.org. Sift as always.

Give up, let Him, brotherjim

[Scuba Pete]

Growth is pretty normal for the Christian:

I Peter 2:2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, 3 now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.

[intruth]

As to "self control",

I may not be understanding what you have written, but, isn't self control, yielding our members to the Spirit, and not to the nature of the flesh?

Aren't WE told to take up "OUR cross" and follow Him, which lies completely in OUR obedience to OUR known will of God?

It IS the work of the Spirit that we are conformed into the image of His Son, but self control is our obedience to His will, because of the Spirit within us, be WE must obey.

It is just like if we are tempted, HE will make a way of escape that WE can bear it, but only if WE walk in it.

[magnolia]

I believe that faith is most important, because that is how we are saved- through grace from faith in Jesus Christ. Now Paul did say that faith without works is dead, but that means that we must prove that we do have that faith truthfully- we go to church, we read our Bible, we go soul-winning, we tithe, we have the joy of the holy spirit.

On the other hand, I believe that a person without those works that prove faith and still has faith is just as saved. There are some saved Christians who refuse to go soul-winning, who refuse to go to church, who refuse to (or just get lazy) read their Bibles. I believe that they are still saved though. It is the faith that is ultimately what is in question.

If a person has works with no faith, then I believe that God does not see that as good enough because he tells us in his Word that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. I believe that no one can work their way to heaven, but must have child-like faith in the mercy of God.

[brotherjim]

Originally Posted by intruth

As to "self control",
. . . Aren't WE told to take up "OUR cross" and follow Him, which lies completely in OUR obedience to OUR known will of God? . . .

Dear "intruth,"

I'm not knowing who you are addressing, but:

There are of course both Fruits of the Spirit and "fruits" of the soul/flesh. Patience, for example, is of the soul, and is therefore gradually had; whereas Long-suffering (Gal. 5:22; KJV/NKJV; sometimes in contemporary translations also rendered "patience," however incorrectly so, as a distinction needs to be made between that which is Spirit and that of flesh) is a Fruit of the Spirit and therefore, like a-ga-pe Love, avail. to be instantly and perfectly manifested in our lives by God's Spirit as we get out of its way (". . . I must decrease.").

In regards to taking up our cross, perhaps the single greatest need in that arena is for us to enter into the sabbatismos "rest" of Heb. 4:9, which is to cease from doing post-New Birth, so-called "well-meaning," actually self-righteous good works of flesh, in favor of only that which the Holy Ghost specifically dictates. (And note how Heb. 4:9's commandment for us as reborn Christians to "work" to enter into that rest, is in the orig. Greek not a laborious task per se, but rather a diligence, and along with Romans 7:21-25 and "the flesh profits nothing" implies a diligence of mind only, the Law of the Mind: "so that no man can [ever rightfully] boast," so "that no flesh should glory in His Presence.")

brotherjim @mail.com