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#1
11-29-2010, 01:15 AM
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Christians and Bible believers Only. The Real Jesus (Son of David According to the Flesh)
Rom 1:3
(KJV) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh 2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. Psalm 94:10 ... he that teaches man knowledge, shall not he know? 1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. ************************************************** ** I believe that the Virgin birth is true, precisely because it is supported in the Scripture, it has been prophecied and it happened as it should, and it was written. What I don't believe in is the idea (which started only in the second century) that the baby was sired by God Himself, that Mary was David's descendant and that Joseph was just a foster father to the man Jesus (These are contrary to what is written and You will not find these in the scripture!) One of the reasons why Atheists believe that Jesus Christ is a False Messiah: “The Messiah must be a physical descendant of David (Romans 1:3 & Acts 2:30). Yet, how could Jesus meet this requirement since his genealogies in Matthew 1 and Luke 3 show he descended from David through Joseph, who was not his natural father because of the Virgin Birth. Hence, this prophecy could not have been fulfilled.”-atheists ONE OF THE REASONS WHY JEWS DO NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS IS BECAUSE OF THIS CATHOLIC LIE!!! According to Jewish sources, the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like other people.The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24). See, A False Jesus have been preached by so called Christians for the longest time to deceive even the elect! Did you know that this "Jesus has no biological father" is a tenet of Christianity and Islam which holds that Mary miraculously conceived Jesus while remaining a virgin and without paternal seed from Joseph, this became a universally held belief in the Christian church by the second century only! only after all the Apostles have died! This doctrine was included in the two most widely used Christian creeds, which state that Jesus "was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary" This false doctrine craftily empowers most if not all fabricated lies and dogmas of Romanism (Catholicism). ****************** God can make Mary be impregnated with Joseph's seed even without sex. And yes, it had to be from Joseph's for the prophecy to be fulfilled, and it was. If God was able to make Sarah who was already old and menopaused conceive Abraham's seed and Elisabeth who was barren conceive Zachariah's seed, how can he not do the same to Joseph and Mary especially if that is how the prophecies about the messiah would be fulfilled? Is it so impossible to think that God could make Mary pregnant with Joseph as sperm donor, if that is how the prophecy should be fulfilled then surely God can do it. If man can perform artificial insemination to virgins and make them conceive via sperm donor, how can God not perform a more brilliant and perfect method than man's. (same thing with Sara and Elisabeth, today it is possible through vitro fertilization and stem cell treatment) Ps 94:10... he that teaches man knowledge, shall not he know? Luke 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible. ************* The Spirit of the Word of God is in Jesus, it was with God, it was God in the beginning, brought forth before the world was (John1, Prov 8), it was in the form of God (Phil 2), it was from God (1 john 4:2), he whose goings forth have been from old from everlasting (Micah 5:2)....before it came and entered the world in the body (the flesh-- 1 John 4:2-3 ) that was prepared for him (this is the man Jesus) by The Father (Heb 10:5). The Real Jesus. Making Sense of Jesus' Virgin Birth Last edited by mayacrisol; 11-29-2010 at 06:54 AM.. 
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#2
11-29-2010, 09:25 AM
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That is a matter of faith, not a matter of proof. I do believe it. . .and will proceed from there. Quote:
Begotten means to be "sired by." The NT tells us that Jesus was sired by God. Quote:
Heli, the first in Luke's list, is Jesus' maternal grandfather. You'll find in the genealogies of the OT that grandsons are sometimes called "sons," probably to shorten the lists, and sometimes the lists are telescoped for literary purposes. And granted, tracing a genealogy through the mother's side is unusual, but then so is the virgin birth. Quote:
Luke reiterates the angel's explicit statement that Jesus is the Son of God, not of Joseph (Lk 1:35). Quote:
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Luke traces Mary's genealogy through Nathan, son of King David. Joseph's genealogy establishes Jesus' royal line from David, and Mary's genealogy establishes his blood line from David. Quote:
What the OT does say is that the Messiah will come from the seed of the woman (Gen 3:15). . .yep, the woman. And that is exactly what happened. Jesus' only human biological parent was a woman. Quote:
2) The virgin birth and paternity of God did not originate in the second century. It is the testimony of the NT. See second response above. 3) This doctrine is not false. It is straight out of the NT. The only falsehood here is in the grey quote areas. Quote:
What the OT does say is that the Messiah will come from the seed of the woman (Gen 3:15). . .which he did. Quote:
Last edited by smokydot; 11-29-2010 at 06:45 PM..
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#3
11-29-2010, 06:20 PM
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To re-iterate what I said in the other thread you posted this topic somewhere else: a slightly more literal translation of Matthew 1:18 says that "she (Mary) was found to hold in her stomach a child originating from the Holy Ghost." I don't understand how you claim you believe in the virgin birth because the Bible says so, but don't believe that Jesus was actually sired by God when this verse (and a lot of others) in the Bible says that He was.
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It seems the only question is whether the seed she was impregnated with was God's or Jospeh's. As smokydot points out, Luke can be interpreted to be writing about Mary's genealogy as opposed to Jospeh's. Jesus being descended from Mary, who was descended from David, according to Luke, makes it possible for a lot of the "come in the flesh" prophecies to be fulfilled without relying on Jospeh being Jesus' biological father. I find Acts 20:28 interesting. God talks about having purchased the church with His own blood. In the context of the Bible it's obvious He's talking about Jesus on the cross, meaning the blood Jesus shed was in fact, God's blood. Modern science shows that blood (specifically blood type) is hereditary. If Jesus had God's blood, he must have inherited it. He couldn't have inherited from Mary, as she wasn't God (Luke 1 talks about her rejoicing because of her saviour; if she was God (or perfect) then she wouldn't need a saviour.) Jesus couldn't have got God's blood from Joseph, because Joseph wasn't God. The only way Jesus could have inherited God's blood is if He was actually the son of God, not the son of Joseph. Furthermore, as smokydot pointed out, Luke says Jesus was the "supposed" son of Joseph, implying that Jesus was "commonly thought" or was "legally reckoned" to be the son of Joseph. If He was the actual son of Joseph, would Luke have not just said "actual" son of Joseph? Last edited by wordmagnifiedabovenames; 11-29-2010 at 08:11 PM.. Reason: Spelling
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#4
11-29-2010, 08:24 PM
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Proverbs 8: 22“The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; 23I was appointedfrom eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. 24When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; 25before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. 27I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, 29when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. 30Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, 31rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind.
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#5
11-29-2010, 08:31 PM
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By the way did you also know that the scripture mentions Heli as priest in Shiloh? Hebrew 7:14 Everyone knows that our Lord came from the tribe of Judah. Moses never said anything about priests coming from that tribe. I can also show you the promise given to Solomon and then down his line. Here: Prophet Ahijah the Shilonite speaks about Solomon NOT LOSING THE CHOSEN TRIBE PROMISED TO DAVID. 1Ki 11:29 And it came to pass at that time when Jeroboam went out of Jerusalem, that the prophet Ahijah the Shilonite found him in the way; and he had clad himself with a new garment; and they two were alone in the field: 1Ki 11:30 And Ahijah caught the new garment that was on him, and rent it in twelve pieces: 1Ki 11:31 And he said to Jeroboam, Take thee ten pieces: for thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, Behold, I will rend the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon, and will give ten tribes to thee: 1Ki 11:32 (But he shall have one tribe for my servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel 1Ki 11:33 Because that they have forsaken me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon, and have not walked in my ways, to do that which is right in mine eyes, and to keep my statutes and my judgments, as did David his father. 1Ki 11:34 Howbeit I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand: but I will make him prince all the days of his life for David my servant's sake, whom I chose, because he kept my commandments and my statutes: 1Ki 11:35 But I will take the kingdom out of his son's hand, and will give it unto thee, even ten tribes. 1Ki 11:36 And unto his son will I give one tribe, that David my servant may have a light alway before me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen me to put my name there. Last edited by mayacrisol; 11-29-2010 at 08:49 PM..
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#6
11-29-2010, 08:45 PM
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Christ is already Son of God before he came and entered the world in the body that was prepared for him. Proverbs 8: 22“The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; 23I was appointedfrom eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. 24When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; 25before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. 27I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, 29when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. 30Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, 31rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind. Heb 10:5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; To say that this line: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: means that the Holy Ghost sired Mary is presumptuous. It does not even mean that. The word overshadow does not mean to fecundate. Overshadow episkiazo ep-ee-skee-ad'-zo to cast a shade upon,that is, (by analogy) to envelop in a haze of brilliancy; figuratively to invest with preternatural influence: - overshadow. See Act 5:15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them. And you know very well in scripture how that the Holy Ghost come upon believers, right? it does not mean they're being sired by the Holy Ghost. see: Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Last edited by mayacrisol; 11-29-2010 at 09:55 PM..
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#7
11-29-2010, 08:54 PM
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Luk 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. Luk 2:4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David ) Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, How about Mary being David's descendant? None What is written is that Mary is cousin of Elisabeth, one of the daughters of Aaron. Luk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. Luk 1:36 And, behold,thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. Is Aaron from Judah's Tribe? No. Last edited by mayacrisol; 11-29-2010 at 08:57 PM..
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#8
11-29-2010, 09:06 PM
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This does not say that the Messiah seed will come from Mary. This verse talks about Christians (seed of the woman, the woman is Jerusalem which is above) and seed of the serpent (apostate Jerusalem). This was further explained by Paul's allegory in Galatians 4. 22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
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#9
11-29-2010, 09:30 PM
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Micah 5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephratah, though you be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall he come forth to me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Num 24:17 The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from his descendants, until the coming of the one to whom it belongs, the one whom all nations will honor. Isa 11:1-10 onwards: And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.....Then in that day The nations will resort to the root of Jesse, Who will stand as a signal for the peoples; And His resting place will be glorious..... Isa 8:8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel. John 7:42 Has not the scripture said, That Christ comes of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was? Matthew 2:6 "'But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel.'" Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh Romans 9:3-5 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Last edited by mayacrisol; 11-29-2010 at 09:35 PM..
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#10
11-29-2010, 09:51 PM
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I've already quoted verses saying the Messiah would descend from the fruit of the body of David, of Solomon and down his line. Christians and Bible believers Only. The Real Jesus (Son of David According to the Flesh) We read in the Scripture that Joseph is son of David, blood lineage and especially from Judah. Therefore in order for the prophecy abt the Messiah that he should descend from the fruit of the body of David, then it has to be from Joseph, through some divine intervention like that which was done to Sarah and Elisabeth so that the other prophecy that he would be born of a virgin was also fulfilled. Quote:
and why must it be from God when God himself said that the Messiah would come from the fruit of the body of David? Would God make void His own declaration? not so. Last edited by mayacrisol; 11-29-2010 at 09:56 PM..
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