The Orthodox/Roman Catholic Veneration of Mary, the Mother of God (Jesus, testimony)

[No*s]

I don't think we should call her "Co-Redemptrix," but that is hardly a universal Roman Catholic trait, and it is a desire to emphasize her unique role in salvation (albeit, I think misplaced).

No, those aren't dogmas...and I don't think they are even representative of the RCC on a whole. However, the points are over my head in knowledge of the RCC. This is one of those times I wish Scott was online...he's RC, and could clear up if they are saying something different than they seem or aren't representitive. I'm almost certain on the latter, and onthe former it's a distinct possibility.

*blows Scott whistle*

[Linus7]

Originally Posted by No*s

I don't think we should call her "Co-Redemptrix," but that is hardly a universal Roman Catholic trait, and it is a desire to emphasize her unique role in salvation (albeit, I think misplaced).

No, those aren't dogmas...and I don't think they are even representative of the RCC on a whole. However, the points are over my head in knowledge of the RCC. This is one of those times I wish Scott was online...he's RC, and could clear up if they are saying something different than they seem or aren't representitive. I'm almost certain on the latter, and onthe former it's a distinct possibility.

*blows Scott whistle*

No, the title "Co-Redemptrix" is not official dogma yet, but its use is pretty general.

I often listen to Catholic Radio and especially to the program Catholic Answers, which is generally pretty good on apologetics.

I heard an example of the use of Co-Redemptrix on that program a week or so ago.

It emphasized Mary's role as the Mother of God, which, of course, is legitimate to do. What it did not clear up, however, is the need for a confusing title like "Co-Redemptrix," which was never used by the Fathers of the Church and is not needed to counter any particular heresy.

Anyway, the underlying assumption of the Catholic Answers program was that the title Co-Redemptrix is perfectly legitimate and accepted by most Catholics. I think the latter is probably true, although I disagree with the former.

[No*s]

I wouldn't be too sure how widely accepted a term is. The very radio program could have had the dual purpose of informing RCs as well. In that case, it would have grounds to emphasize how many RCs accept it, and they may see widespread where it isn't that widespread.

I've sent Scott a PM, and he's Roman Catholic, so he'll be able to clear up some of the language/spread confusion. Personally, I won't use the word, but I also can't make assertions on it till I know more. As I have always understood it, it simply, as you said, emphasizes Mary's role as Theotokos. However, it was introduced in the absence of heresy (or possibly in resonse to Protestantism....which would count).

I await his insight .

[Linus7]

Originally Posted by No*s

I wouldn't be too sure how widely accepted a term is. The very radio program could have had the dual purpose of informing RCs as well. In that case, it would have grounds to emphasize how many RCs accept it, and they may see widespread where it isn't that widespread.

I've sent Scott a PM, and he's Roman Catholic, so he'll be able to clear up some of the language/spread confusion. Personally, I won't use the word, but I also can't make assertions on it till I know more. As I have always understood it, it simply, as you said, emphasizes Mary's role as Theotokos. However, it was introduced in the absence of heresy (or possibly in resonse to Protestantism....which would count).

I await his insight .

Oh, I'm not making assertions, just repeating what I have read in St. John Maximovitch's book, what I heard on Catholic Answers, and what I have observed myself.

Have you read St. John's book?

It's really very good.

[No*s]

That would be another to add to my "to read" list . There are so many books, and so little time. Since I've been on this list, it's really backed itself up lol.

[Scott1]

I moved this to same faith debate..... I'll be on later tonight (I hope) to add my 2 cents.....

[Scott1]

Well, Linus7.... here's the official RC version....

Originally Posted by Linus7

It emphasized Mary's role as the Mother of God, which, of course, is legitimate to do. What it did not clear up, however, is the need for a confusing title like "Co-Redemptrix," which was never used by the Fathers of the Church and is not needed to counter any particular heresy.

By Mary's faith and submission, she cooperates still (as do all the Saints), as she did on earth, with God's will and work of redemption. "To cooperate" means "to work with". Mary cooperates with God by her faith and submission. She says her Fiat, her "Let it be done", still, in praying to her Son to cometo us with his saving grace, and in this way she is Co-redemptrix". The "co" here does not mean "equal" but "helping", as a humble handmaid helps a great Lord - a Lord who exalts his handmaids rather than keeping them passive and inactive.

The Church has not dogmaticly defined this title (or others such as Advocate, Mediatrix of all Graces etc), but PROPERLY understood, then are in line with everything else the Church has defined about Mary.

Everything about Mary relates precisely to her transparency to Christ, like a clear window..... her soul only magnifies the Lord.... remember, when we see an image through a magnifing glass, the object in view is magnified, but in actuality, it is the glass you are looking at.... in this way, Mary is always a "tool" to magnify Christ.

From the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church LUMEN GENTIUM:
60. There is but one Mediator as we know from the words of the apostle, "for there is one God and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a redemption for all". The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no wise obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows His power. For all the salvific influence of the Blessed Virgin on men originates, not from some inner necessity, but from the divine pleasure. It flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on His mediation, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it. In no way does it impede, but rather does it foster the immediate union of the faithful with Christ.
62. This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until The eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and cultics, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.

For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to His creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.

The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary. It knows it through unfailing experience of it and commends it to the hearts of the faithful, so that encouraged by this maternal help they may the more intimately adhere to the Mediator and Redeemer.

Peace in Christ,
Scott

MAY WE ALL BE ONE!

[No*s]

Thank you. It is an issue of language there, indeed . It is often easy to simply miscommunicate (I don't like the terminology, because I think the old terminology sufficient, but it's nice to know I wasn't misreading it).

[Linus7]

Yes, thanks for the explanation, SOGFPP.

I think some of those titles are confusing, creating stumblingblocks where there is no doctrinal necessity for them.

Please explain, if you wouldn't mind, the meaning behind the title, "Mediatrix of All Graces."

How does Mary - eternally blessed and spotless though she is - mediate the grace of God in the Blessed Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist, for example, in which we receive Christ Himself?

[Scott1]

Originally Posted by Linus7

I think some of those titles are confusing, creating stumblingblocks where there is no doctrinal necessity for them.

Stumblingblocks for whom? I think me and a billion or so of us RC get it just fine.... or are you speaking for yourself?

Please explain, if you wouldn't mind, the meaning behind the title, "Mediatrix of All Graces."

Bless you Linus7, for giving me the opportunity to clear up any confusion you may have about the Mother of God.
Mediatrix of All Graces simply means that there is no kind of grace that she cannot ask God for and mediate; and in so doing she is the "Mediatrix of All Graces"..... I am sure that some who hear this believe it means that all Grace must be somehow funneled through Mary, but it's nothing so sinister or heretical as that.

May we all be ONE!
Scott