Christian: Problems With Modern Bible Translations (moral, Kingdom, virgin, grace)

[Linus7]

Problems With the RSV

I have some real reservations about the RSV Bible, even though I know a lot of people like it. I own two of them myself, both with the Deuterocanonical Books. One of them is a real nice leather Bible.

In Isaiah 7:14 the RSV translates the Hebrew word almah as "young woman" rather than "virgin." Here it is:

"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold a young woman will conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."

That seems to me to weaken the power and specificity of Isaiah's prophecy.

In 1 Corinthians 6:9 the RSV translates the Greek word pornos (fornicators, whoremongers) as "the immoral," and the Greek words malakos (effeminate, catamites, male prostitutes) and arsenokoites (homosexuals - literally "those men who lie or 'couch' with other men") as "sexual perverts."

Here is that verse:

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts . . ."

It seems to me these rather wimpy translations weaken the meaning of the respective verses in which they occur.

"The immoral" can mean almost anything, and "sexual perverts" can be a relative term that depends for its definition on the standards of a particular community.

It seems to me the original Greek words were much more specific and left their readers or auditors in no doubt as to their meanings.

Here is the RSV's rendition of the Archangel Gabriel's initial greeting to the Blessed Virgin Mary:

Luke 1:28 And he came to her and said, "Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!"

Pretty pedestrian.

Here are the renderings of all of those verses above in a couple of much better Bible versions.

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (King James Bible)

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son and his name shall be called Emmanuel. (Douay Rheims Bible)

1Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind (King James Bible)

1Corinthians 6:9-10 Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: Neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers: Nor the effeminate nor liers with mankind nor thieves nor covetous nor drunkards nor railers nor extortioners shall possess the kingdom of God. (Douay Rheims Bible)

Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, "Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women." (King James Bible)

Luke 1:28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. (Douay Rheims Bible)

The KJV and the DRB may use language that is somewhat archaic, but at least what is meant is fairly clear.

Has anyone else encountered any other problems in the RSV or other modern translations?

[No*s]

The issue is more complicated than that. The RSV is translated from the Masoretic Text, which means that they're translating the Hebrew words, not the LXX. The Hebrew has alma, which denotes a young woman. The Christian reading is dependent on the translation in the LXX, itself done by Jews in the third or second century BC. It's one of the reasons a Christian Bible should place a heavy emphasis on the LXX...

On I Corinthians 6.9, pornos denotes someone participating in porneia, which in its turn denotes more than fornication. The translation of "sexually immoral" is better in that sense, as BDAG says "any form of unlawful intercourse."

The second and third are softened, though.

Luke 1.28 is certainly pretty pedestrian, but it's jlegitimate as a translation. Personally, I think it is far from emphatic enough.

Now, I have to ask...can you work with the original languages, and I mean actually open it up and read them?

[Linus7]

No, I can't read the original languages, although I do speak more than one modern language.

I agree with you about the Septuagint. Since the translators of it were actually ancient Jews themselves, who had access to manuscripts the medieval Masoretes did not have, it is more reliable than the Masoretic text. The Masoretes also had an anti-Christian axe to grind.

Besides, the word almah - as I understand it, and I'm no Hebrew scholar - while it can mean young woman, really has a meaning closer to the English word maiden, which, like the German word Maedchen, originally signified a virgin.

I think the translators of the Septuagint understood Isaiah better than the medieval Masoretes - or the translators of the RSV - did.

[Linus7]

Originally Posted by No*s

On I Corinthians 6.9, pornos denotes someone participating in porneia, which in its turn denotes more than fornication. The translation of "sexually immoral" is better in that sense, as BDAG says "any form of unlawful intercourse."

Your explanation makes sense, although I understand fornication to encompass more than just unlawful sexual intercourse.

[No*s]

Originally Posted by Linus7

No, I can't read the original languages, although I do speak more than one modern language.

I agree with you about the Septuagint. Since the translators of it were actually ancient Jews themselves, who had access to manuscripts the medieval Masoretes did not have, it is more reliable than the Masoretic text. The Masoretes also had an anti-Christian axe to grind.

Besides, the word almah - as I understand it, and I'm no Hebrew scholar - while it can mean young woman, really has a meaning closer to the English word maiden, which, like the German word Maedchen, originally signified a virgin.

I think the translators of the Septuagint understood Isaiah better than the medieval Masoretes - or the translators of the RSV - did.

Yes, I got that from my Hebrew professor. The only biblical language I can read and write is Greek, but I intend to add Hebrew. The way she put it was that we can't really demonstrate a clear sense of "virgin" for the term, but we can for "young girl."

However, our case isn't hurt too terribly badly. It would be hard for me to view it as a mistranslation. She also pointed out a word, which I can't remember, where Hebrew has a distinction between maiden/virgin. So does Greek. As far as I'm concerned, it represents some no longer extant interpretation . Just as people can argue "the word means," we can equally point out "Greek-speaking translators in the third century interpreted it as..." That, in its turn, makes this a sort of stand-off...but I'm satisfied with the result .

Originally Posted by Linus7

Your explanation makes sense, although I understand fornication to encompass more than just unlawful sexual intercourse.

I have always understood fornication as simply sex outside of marriage, and thus, not encompassing the full impact of porneia. I would translate it the same way if I were to make a Bible translation (something that, in my arrogance, I actually started once, and then realized how arrogant it was).

[Linus7]

Of course, those Greek-speaking translators of the 3rd century were Greek-speaking Hebrew translators, and the 3rd century in their case was the 3rd century B.C.

That gives them quite an antiquarian edge over the Masoretes, who assembled their texts only in the Middle Ages.

I need to learn New Testament Greek. I don't have much desire to learn Hebrew.

I have a buddy who is something of a linguist. Besides English, he speaks fluent Russian and Spanish and reads Hebrew and New Testament Greek. He told me Hebrew is a Level 6 language, 6 being the highest level of difficulty.

I speak and read German pretty well, although I am getting rustier every day, and a bit of Russian.

Anyway, I have found that learning to read another Indo-European language is not that difficult. Conversational fluency is another thing altogether!

[No*s]

I can believe Hebrew is that difficult...it looks difficult from what little I've learned of the principles. The tense system just looks wierd.

My list of languages for study are Russian, expanding into Modern Greek (I can read Homeric, Attic, and Hellenistic rather easily), more Latin, Church Slavonic, Hebrew, and Aramaic

[Linus7]

Originally Posted by No*s

I can believe Hebrew is that difficult...it looks difficult from what little I've learned of the principles. The tense system just looks wierd.

My list of languages for study are Russian, expanding into Modern Greek (I can read Homeric, Attic, and Hellenistic rather easily), more Latin, Church Slavonic, Hebrew, and Aramaic

Whoa! That's an ambitious list!

I wish you success!

I'm too lazy for all that. I want to learn NT Greek and ecclesiastical Latin. I also want to improve my Russian.

I'd like to learn all of the Germanic languages, but time is limited, so I probably will stop at English and German.

[No*s]

Oh, I won't ever learn them all. I'm too much a procrastinator. I've also wanted to learn Old English and German simply for my heritage, but those are my biblical languages lol. I will probably get the Old English, Latin, and Greek studies done, but realistically, not much more. I'm much too lazy, and that's my dream list .

[No*s]

Since this is a Bible thread, how far along do you think that the "Orthodox Study Bible" translation of the LXX is? I have no clue.

I've tried the new "Holy Orthodox Bible," which is limited to the Pentateuch, and I liked it somewhat. It's nice to have an English translationI can sit down and read (I loathe Brenton's...I'd rather pluck out my eyes with red hot pokers than read it). Greek is fun, enlightening and all, but there's just something about the mother tongue .