Christian: Convicted vs Condemned (Jesus Christ, Moses, Earth, salvation, incarnation)

[Snowbear]

In reading the threads on these forums I've seen a lot of posts about sin, heaven and hell. A lot about being a good person or by not sinning a person gets to heaven (eternal life).

As a christian, I have learned that it's not being a good person or being a sinless person that gets me outa hell. I have found that as a human, it impossible to not sin. No matter how much I try to be a good person, I still screw up. I am convicted (found guilty) of my sins...

But there's hope - I'm not condemned (put to death) for those sins 'cause Jesus already paid that price for me.

[pcarl]

<But there's hope>

As far as the east is from the west, so far have our sins been removed from us.
As a father has compassion on his children, so the LORD has compassion on the faithful.

[No*s]

I don't thnk either one is applicable Snowbear .

Sin is a disease, and good works are medicine. Christ came, and in the incarnation brought God down to man. This wasn't because God has trouble forgiving, but because God has given us an irrevocable gift: freewill, and we had separated ourselves from Him and thus, damaged the image of God we have within us. The only way to heal this was for Christ to become man and bring the divine into contact with the material, and thus unite them.

In this view, we don't need to be "forgiven" as much as have sin "remitted." Both are valid translations of the Greek word aphiimi, which is translated "sin." It also fits in well with St. Paul's admonitions against legalism .

[Nick Soapdish]

Originally Posted by Snowbear

In reading the threads on these forums I've seen a lot of posts about sin, heaven and hell. A lot about being a good person or by not sinning a person gets to heaven (eternal life).

As a christian, I have learned that it's not being a good person or being a sinless person that gets me outa hell. I have found that as a human, it impossible to not sin. No matter how much I try to be a good person, I still screw up. I am convicted (found guilty) of my sins...

But there's hope - I'm not condemned (put to death) for those sins 'cause Jesus already paid that price for me.

My beliefs are congruent (my new favorite word from Deut) with yours ..

[Snowbear]

Originally Posted by No*s

I don't thnk either one is applicable Snowbear .

Hmmm.... how about if I try to clarify some of where I'm getting the convict/condemn thing from...

Jesus in the temple... The Pharisees and Scribes brought the adulteress to Him to be convicted of her sin and to be condemned to death (as was their law at the time) by stoning:
John 8:7 But as they continued to ask Him, He lifted Himself up and said to them, He who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her. 8 And again bending down, He wrote on the ground. 9 And hearing, and being convicted by conscience, they went out one by one, beginning at the oldest, until the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

They were convicted by their own sin, so they left. Jesus did not condemn her either:
John 8:10 And bending back up, and seeing no one but the woman, Jesus said to her, Woman, where are the ones who accused you? Did not one give judgment against you? 11 And she said, No one, Lord. And Jesus said to her, Neither do I give judgment. Go, and sin no more.

Jesus speaks to the disciples about the Holy Spirit coming to them after He returns to Heaven. I don't pretend to know all the answers, but one thing this says to me is that the Holy Spirit guides our conscience, making us realize our sin:
John 16:7 But I tell you the truth, it is expedient for you that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you. But if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when that One comes, He will convict the world concerning sin, and concerning righteousness, and concerning judgment.

And so we are not condemned:
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.

As for forgiveness...
The woman who washed Jesus' feet:
Luk 7:47 Therefore I say to you, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, he loves little. 48 And He said to her, Your sins are forgiven. 49 And those reclining with Him began to say within themselves, Who is this who even forgives sins? 50 And He said to the woman, Your faith has saved you, go in peace.

And again on being forgiven through Jesus, who is without sin:
Act 13:37 But He whom God raised again saw no corruption. 38 Therefore be it known to you, men, brothers, that through this One the forgiveness of sins is announced to you. 39 And by Him all who believe are justified from all things, from which you could not be justified by the Law of Moses.

[No*s]

Originally Posted by Snowbear

Hmmm.... how about if I try to clarify some of where I'm getting the convict/condemn thing from...

Jesus in the temple... The Pharisees and Scribes brought the adulteress to Him to be convicted of her sin and to be condemned to death (as was their law at the time) by stoning:
John 8:7 But as they continued to ask Him, He lifted Himself up and said to them, He who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her. 8 And again bending down, He wrote on the ground. 9 And hearing, and being convicted by conscience, they went out one by one, beginning at the oldest, until the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
They were convicted by their own sin, so they left. Jesus did not condemn her either:
John 8:10 And bending back up, and seeing no one but the woman, Jesus said to her, Woman, where are the ones who accused you? Did not one give judgment against you? 11 And she said, No one, Lord. And Jesus said to her, Neither do I give judgment. Go, and sin no more.

I'm surprised you would use this passage to support a legalistic system of salvation . Christ doesn't require the sacrifice of the Law, instead, He makes the elders see their fault (convict in that portion has no reference to the requirements of the Law), and instead, demonstrates a ready willingness to forgive, and He does so without any requirement or sacrifice. He hadn't been hung on a cross yet. It shows that God is ready and willing to look past our errors and requires no sacrifice to do so.

Originally Posted by Snowbear

Jesus speaks to the disciples about the Holy Spirit coming to them after He returns to Heaven. I don't pretend to know all the answers, but one thing this says to me is that the Holy Spirit guides our conscience, making us realize our sin:
John 16:7 But I tell you the truth, it is expedient for you that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you. But if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when that One comes, He will convict the world concerning sin, and concerning righteousness, and concerning judgment.

Here, I think you bring out a misunderstanding...I never said that we wouldn't become aware of our sinfulness and faults. Quite to the contrary, that is essential to Christianity. I don't believe salvation is a legalistic system, though. "Convict," like the passage you listed before, means "to show fault," or "to show a wrong." To convict someone is to show them their faults, and that doesn't require a law to do, so "convict" doesn't require "condemn" whenever it appears. I could just as easily and accurately translate it:

"And while coming, that one will demonstrate fault in the world concerning sin and righteousness and concerning judgement."

Originally Posted by Snowbear

And so we are not condemned:
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.

The book of John is so much fun . What is the condemnation Christ saves us from? Is it a conviction because God can't or won't forgive our sins without Christ's sacrifice lest we live forever in separation from God? I don't think that's the case, and you haven't shown that, but it is essential to your dichotomy of conviction/condemnation.

Originally Posted by Snowbear

As for forgiveness...
The woman who washed Jesus' feet:
Luk 7:47 Therefore I say to you, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, he loves little. 48 And He said to her, Your sins are forgiven. 49 And those reclining with Him began to say within themselves, Who is this who even forgives sins? 50 And He said to the woman, Your faith has saved you, go in peace.

Here's another translation that doesn't emphasise legalism as much:

"On Account of which, I say to you, her sins that are being remitted are great, because she loved greatly, but the one for whom little is forgiven, loves little, but he said to her, you sins are being remitted, but those who were reclining with Him began to say amongst themselves, `Who is this man who even remits sin?' But He said to the woman, `Your trust has saved you; go in peace.'"

This translation highlights a different shade of meaning for aphiimi, which emphasises the aspect of sin as disease rather than a legal transgression. Heck, even the term "save" can mean "save" from anything ranging from drowning to political trouble to legal trouble to medical healing.

Originally Posted by Snowbear

And again on being forgiven through Jesus, who is without sin:
Act 13:37 But He whom God raised again saw no corruption. 38 Therefore be it known to you, men, brothers, that through this One the forgiveness of sins is announced to you. 39 And by Him all who believe are justified from all things, from which you could not be justified by the Law of Moses.

This verse actually illustrates my point . It wasn't "no transgression was found," so therefore they knew He could forgive/remit sins, but "no corruption." Jesus rose from the dead, and as the ancient Christian hymn says, "by death He had trampled down death." Thus, Jesus rising without corruption signifies that He has conquered corruption.

Now, next I need to provide an outline and Scriptural evidence for how I see salvation .

[No*s]

The problem with the conviction/condemnation dichotomy is that it seems to suggest a view of salvation that we are held guilty, and that God couldn't forgive sin, until Christ came to earth and made a sacrifice according the Law. At that point, simply accepting the sacrifice is sufficient to accomplish one's salvation. This, however, has a couple of problems. Not least of which that it is a legalistic salvation, something outright condemned in the New Testament. As such, I understand your use of "condemn" as "hold guilty" and "convict" as "to demonstrate guilt" with a special reference to law. The former can mean any manner of condemnation, including a self-inflicted one brought on by our nature. The latter can be "to demonstrate guilt," but without any reference to law.

I think the best definition of salvation is union with God, and likewise union with God is the best definition of Hell . St. Peter asserts that "As all things have been given to us by His divine power concerning life and piety through the supreme knowledge of the one who called us unto His own glory and virtue, through whom the precious and great promises have been given to us, in order that through these you might become participants of the divine nature fleeing the corroption with is in the world in lust" (2 Pet 1.3-4).

St. Peter outlines salvation as actually participating in the divine nature. This is in every text variant I know of, and the variant I used that Christ had "called us unto his own glory and virtue" is also in the vast majority of variants. Most translations tend to place a "by" here, but the Greek lacks a preposition and can go either way, but "to" makes more sense when St. Peter asserts that we are to be participants of the divine nature.

To do this, we must flee corruption. This corruption exists in the world, and in its turn comes from "lust," or more precisely a strong desire. Thus, we have "corruption" as our principle problem we must flee from in this passage, and what we are running toward is "divine nature."

Christ, likewise, promised that "If anyone thirsts let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water" (Jn. 7.37-38). Here, Christ is the living water, but whoever receives Him, also has an outflow of living water as a result of the salvation.

In John 15, Jesus asserts that He is the true vine, and that Christians are the branches. They in their turn bear "fruit." Specifically, He asserts "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing." This, again, indicates that salvation is actually participating in the life, and even nature, of God. This sentiment culminates with a prayer later in John, where Jesus prays and says "this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom You have sent...[I pray] that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me...I in them, and You in Me, tha tthey may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me" (Jn. 17.3,21,23).

Jesus' prayer, then, is that His followers participate in the Trinity.

In this view, we flee corruption to join God. This process means that there isn't some dichotomy we have to resolve between "convicting and believing" and "condemnation." Salvation is like healing, and works like medicine. We gradually get well, and can't really say "We're well" until it's done. In this sense, one can stop the healing process, making verses used to demonstrate a loss of salvation applicable. It can happen with no loss of security. The problem isn't forgiveness, but our recovery.

A similar article on this:
http://www.philthompson.net/pages/li...veroffire.html

[Snowbear]

Originally Posted by No*s

I'm surprised you would use this passage to support a legalistic system of salvation .

Oops.... Is that what it seems like I'm doing????
OK, try again.....
I'm talking about conviction and condemnation in the spiritual sense. I don't think salvation can be purchased by doing good works or being a good person.
I'm talking about conviction as having a conscience and realizing that I am not perfect and cannot be sinless. Even though I am convicted (have sinned), I am not condemned (will not be put to death) because I do believe in the forgiveness of God.

The OT is filled with instances of animal sacrifices to God to ask for forgiveness for sin. As God, Jesus had the authority to forgive without requiring sacrifice. He did still die as the ultimate payment for all sin, right?? Also to fulfill the scripture that he would die, and as proof of His divinity, be resurrected?

Originally Posted by No*s

Christ doesn't require the sacrifice of the Law, instead, He makes the elders see their fault (convict in that portion has no reference to the requirements of the Law), and instead, demonstrates a ready willingness to forgive, and He does so without any requirement or sacrifice. He hadn't been hung on a cross yet. It shows that God is ready and willing to look past our errors and requires no sacrifice to do so.

I agree. And I agree the scripture I quoted is pointing this out.

Originally Posted by No*s

To convict someone is to show them their faults, and that doesn't require a law to do, so "convict" doesn't require "condemn" whenever it appears.

Actually... that was the point I was trying to make ... We are convicted by our conscience, but because of our salvation, we are NOT condemned.

Thanks for taking the time to help me get this straight

[Snowbear]

Originally Posted by No*s

The problem with the conviction/condemnation dichotomy is that it seems to suggest a view of salvation that we are held guilty, and that God couldn't forgive sin, until Christ came to earth and made a sacrifice according the Law.

You were typing while I was typing (I'm slow at that).

It seems we agree, I'm just not so good at putting it into words

[No*s]

Originally Posted by Snowbear

You were typing while I was typing (I'm slow at that).

It seems we agree, I'm just not so good at putting it into words

That's OK on the typing speeds . I think there's still some points of disagreement, though...but it's getting late, and I'll be going to bed soon.

However, before I go to bed, I'll explain the view of salvation I'm getting the jist of. From what I gather, you view us as having sinned, and this sin imparts guilt on us. God is just and true to His word and must hold us accountable for our guilt. The only way to atone for this sin was death, so He sends Christ to atone for it, so that He can open up a path to salvation we couldn't earn. In so doing, Christ did all the work, and we need only accept it.

Correct me if I'm misreading you. If that's the case, we need a bit more dialogue .